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Modelling different workflow-options

Former Member
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There is a wiki which tells us the different work-flow options you can use:

SAP Business Workflow,

Guided Procedures

Collaboration tasks



Question1: is the a comprehensive tool to model these different altogether or do we need SAP Business Workflow's own modelling tool, UML for guided procedures, ? for Collaboration tasks and BPMN for BPEL separately (I hope it's not...).

Question 2: How does ARIS EPC's relate to this: the EPC is used for business-modelling. This should be the starting point for configurating different workflow-options, (using different models?).

Greetings Theo

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Former Member
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Not quite the same but I think a related topic...

The future fit of SAP strategy and direction on Enterprise Architecture Frameworks and Business Process Modelling methods.

At the EA day at Tech Ed we heard SAP was developing an EA Framework based on TOGAF from the Open Group.

How will that framework fit and work in an integrated way to BPM Tools. (i.e. I have heard in an ASUG IDS-Scheer presentation that there is planned an "embedded version of ARIS" for the next NetWeaver release.

We are looking at both using ARIS here (as a big SAP Customer) but also looking at developing/articulating an Enterprise Architecture Framework as well. (Not just for the SAP world, but across IT). We are unsure which direction to head in.

Any tips please?

Regards, Phil G

Former Member
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Hello Phil:

I'm glad you brought this up. Lemme see if I can address everything here as best as I can:

1) That is correct. We (SAP) are developing an EA Framework. However, this is, IMHO, not SAP-specific. I'd argue that it isn't because it doesn't require any product behind it; that is, it's <i>technology/product independant</i>. As a testament to the "<b><i>revolutionary evolution</i></b>" SAP is undertaking in terms of product development and technology in general, the NetWeaver platform can fit into the/an EA framework, not the other way around. So instead of working your strategic architecture models around SAP, you can take a more strategic approach towards SAP.

2) Yes, this new EA framework has strong roots in the TOGAF. IMHO, I see other methods and delivery process influences peeking out as well. So far, I like the holistic approach our team is taking in it's development - it should be a very good "release". Look out this year for announcements - if I come upon something, I'll mention it in my blog.

3) In terms of your ARIS question, I understand that the nice folks at ARIS are working closely with us to ensure that their design/modelling tools will have the capability to model against this new EA Framework - and like other tools I've used like Rational Enterprise Suite, Enterprise Architect, Visio, et al, they usually do.

4) In terms of "fit", there's nothing to "fit". EA Frameworks, by design, are supposed to work like a skeleton; that is, like an 8-year old child's skeleton, an EA Framework should be rigorous enough to maintain it's structure, but adaptable enough to grow and mould as the body grows and matures. Perhaps not the best analogy, but maybe enough to illustrate context and meaning.

5) My experience taught me to work smart and not hard - no point inventing and reinventing the wheel. That is, with respect to your organization developing it's own EA Framework - I think that's a very responsible and smart endeavour... but I'd also leverage what's out there as I develop what's right for my organization. So if you feel that what we (SAP) develop can work within the context of your organization (think old 80/20 rules), then I'd say call us and leverage away. After all, that's our raison d'etre

Hope my blathering helps and gives you something to think about. If you have any questions, concerns, or comments, feel free to email/call me. If I don't know it, I'm sure I can find someone who can.

- Tery

Former Member
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Hi Tery,


We certainly don't intend to re-invent the wheel when developing our EA Framework, which is why we are interested in what is already out there and what can be provided as a base.

As we progress this this year, it would be great to be able to leverage off expertise and artifacts that are already available. As a global SAP customer, I am hoping we can do that.

Cheers, Phil G.

Former Member
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I thougt this forum was about BPX-guys/girls who have to translate the business requirements into some configuration and are looking for methodologies, guidelines and models to achieve that.

So I thought my question about modelling could best be placed in this forum.

Now that I'm looking to all the messages in this forum I conclude that this forum is merely used to get answers on technical questions about SAP Business workflow (should be part of SDN instead of BPX?).

That must be the reason why I get no answer to my question. And that's a pity.

I'm bothered: what do I have to tell my customer: E-SOA is a bunch of separately developed tools without a general integrating modelling concept and guidelines when to use what tool. How to align Business with IT still keeps being obscure. So trail and error is the best way to implement it?

Greetings Theo

Active Contributor
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We are anxious to hear your voice. We need to revisit the definitions in order to ensure your voice here doesn't get drowned out.

Would you agree that WF questions need to move to a techincal forum?

This is what we seem to be hearing and would like to think together with the community to find the best solution.....

The more input from the community, the better the ability to redefine.

thanks so much for this valuable input.

Let's keep this topic on top!


Former Member
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In my opinion BPM has the folowwing layers:

1. Business proces modeling.

2. Proces and activity configuration modeling.

3. Process and activity configuration.

4. Process execution.

5. Activity Monitoring

1. should be done by a business analyst (model used: EPC)

2. should be done by a BPX. This layer connects the business. The model used her should be understandable by both Business as It: BPMN, UML (use cases), etc.

3. should be done by functional consultant, WF-consultants, VC-consultants, etc.

4. should be done by systems and end-users

5. should be done by systems and end-users

So for a BPX to work he needs a set of comprehensive modeling tools. Besides that he must know when tot use ccBPM of BTM-tools.

In a nutshell.

What's your opinion?

Greetings Theo

Active Contributor
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I asked <a href="">alan Rickayzen</a> about renaming this forum to something like Business Process Design and moving technical WF posts over to a separate Workflow forum and this was his reply:

"I prefer the term Business Process Modeling Methodology (BPMM) to BPDesign, simply because the 'design' is often associated with the graphical modeler too. It implies some sort of graphic design and other stuff like "how would you design your 2 step approval?" ie. workflow again.

The reason I'm against a SAP business workflow forum is because

it already accounts for 90% of the netweaver bpm forum. So the nw bpm forum would dry up if we moved that content to a new bwf forum.

You'd have a tough time picking out the threads in bpmm/bpd relating to workflow versus XI's ccBPM and other tools. If you just use nw bpm you can put all the BPM technical stuff in there."

We welcome comments from the community.

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Hi Theo,

I've nothing to hide but that quote was taken from an internal SAP mail so it wasn't polished for forum publication.

Just to clarify - I agree with your description of the layers.

I believe that a bpx working in an SAP environment should be aware of the tools (and approximate capabilities) at their disposal as well as basic functionality in the underlying business components deployed.

I believe that any question along the lines of "how do you do this with..tool A" is definitely not for the bpx forum. It should go in the relevant tools forum. Seeing as most of these posts are related to SAP Business Workflow or BAM or XI then they should go in the SAP NetWeaver BPM forum. There is also a CAF forum for guided procedures and a Visual Composer forum for VC and other forums for the other tools (such as BI). I.e. No need to create a new forum, just direct these tool posts to the tools forums.

I don't know whether BPMN or UML can really be understood by the business experts. In my experience white-boarding and flow-charts work pretty well but maybe the business experts have become more process savvy (which is why we want to offer certification).

Experience in a process automation project is a must, and knowledge about why this process is being done in such-and-such a way (e.g. 6-Sigma understanding) is also a must.

The BPX can reach level 1 from either level 1 or level 3. Philip Kisloff's BPX article is an excellent demonstration of level 3. Yes, he did use workflow to solve the problem but he had his bpx glasses on when he wrote the article.

<a href="/people/alan.rickayzen/blog/2006/11/03/business-process-expertise-and-workflow-engineering--distinction-and-overlap:///people/alan.rickayzen/blog/2006/11/03/business-process-expertise-and-workflow-engineering--distinction-and-overlap href="">BPX article</a>

<a href="/people/philip.kisloff/blog/2006/12/10/how-to-structure-hard-to-automate-business-processes">BPX blog as discussion board for article</a>

Here's my opinion in all it's glory

<a href="/people/alan.rickayzen/blog/2006/11/03/business-process-expertise-and-workflow-engineering--distinction-and-overlap:///people/alan.rickayzen/blog/2006/11/03/business-process-expertise-and-workflow-engineering--distinction-and-overlap

All the best,


Active Contributor
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Sorry, the indiscretion was mine, but your post Theo helped us to try to create some order here. We have moved all obvious technical workflow related questions to the newly renamed forum. That is the place for technical, tool oriented questions.

Our hope is that in this forum, the <b>modeling methodology</b> forum, the discussions will focus around methodologies, how to choose a process model and how to use a language that is easily understood by the business. Since process models are often needed to help understand and enable an actual process, we should be discussing best modeling practices.

In addition, we can discuss various process information gathering techniques. Lastly, we can also discuss here the various enabling technologies available and perhaps further discuss their merits.