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What happened to the morality of the SDN members?

former_member583013
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

I have spend most of my time of the last couple of weeks in the ABAP forums...And something really bad came to my attention....We all know that each question receives at least 5 or 7 answers....But....Have you realized that there some people who just copy and paste the same answers changing a couple of letters???

For example:

<b>Question: How can I make a simple report?</b>

<b>Answer1: A little example...</b>


REPORT TEST.

DATA: T_SPFLI TYPE STANDARD TABLE OF SPFLI WITH HEADER LINE.

SELECT * INTO TABLE T_SPFLI FROM SPFLI.

LOOP AT T_SPFLI.
WRITE:/ T_SPFLI-CARRID, T_SPFLI-CONNID.
ENDLOOP.

<b>Answer2: Heres is a little example...</b>


REPORT TEST.

DATA: T_SPFLI TYPE STANDARD TABLE OF SPFLI WITH HEADER LINE.

SELECT * INTO TABLE T_SPFLI FROM SPFLI.

LOOP AT T_SPFLI.
WRITE:/ T_SPFLI-COUNTRYFR, T_SPFLI-CITYFROM.
ENDLOOP.

I mean....come one....Great minds think alike....But don't try to fool me with that one....I have seen that kind of stuff more than once....

Another one....

<b>Question: How can I see if my program is Ok?</b>

<b>Answer1: Use SE30</b>

<b>Answer2: You can use SE30</b>

<b>Answer3: SE30</b>

<b>Answer4: Hi, please use SE30</b>

<b>Answer5: SE30, you can check you program with that...</b>

Ok...It's clear that the first answer was enough....So...Why keep on posting the same thing??? And of course I'm aware of the timing....I have seen answers published 10 minutes after...with the same result..

Now....Are people just Point Hunters??? Or the want so badly to help people that they didn't loose time reading the other answers???

As for me....I only answer questions when I got something different or when I think that I can complete a nice answer with something more explicative....

Of course...Moderator can't and are not supposed to be watching all the forums 24/7....So please....If you see this kind of behavior....Do something...I don't what -:P But something really need to be done....

Greetings,

Blag.

Accepted Solutions (1)

Accepted Solutions (1)

Private_Member_9643
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Hey All,

I am not sure how many of you will agree with me or not, but as a techi BI guy I can say my reply to the below thread was enough for the answer to question asked, but still some more content was added by TOP SDN Contributor (extra was of no use in conern with the question asked):

This is not the only example, but I am watching this in BI forums since long...people reply with more text to get more points where one line can serve the purpose.

Also single person in BI forums has assigned more than 1000 Points in last 10 days for very basic questions which anyone can get by reading/searching the forum. It looks like a single person is learning BI from all BI experts. Generally for very basic questions it is suggested by all to search the forums, or at max we provide with the link to previous threads...but now many from us are trying to explain him in detail...just becasue he is generous in giving points.

See the below link where I suggested to search the forum to that guy as well:

I also replied once, and got 22 points for such a basic question I answered (which I really don't deserve):

I am not trying to point out anyone, this is just what I am watching. You can find many more examples like this in Forums...Moderators should take some action.

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hi Kamaljeet,

I remember also such situations when the answers posted after me from the more-point-heavy contributors with a bit more details (comparing with my answer) brought them 10 points, leaving me with 6 or 0 points. I thought that it was somewhat unfair.

But now I treat it phylosophycally. Probably, it's the main strong feature of SDN when a lot of people are willing to answer questions. Yes, for points. But everybody knows that there is a fierce competetion. And if we forgot about some dirty games of point hunters (and their own counterparts giving points), then the genuine questioner just decides either to give more points to the quickest answer or to the more detailed one. It's up to him/her.

And nothing you can do about it. It's a life.

Personally I, confined myself with the most interesting/difficult (or related to my main speciality) questions. It's not interesting for me anymore to participate in answering the basic or many times answered questions (especially from the persons who don't bother to search the forums before asking).

So, it's your own choice of how to react and react on what in forums.

Don't think that these are the moderators' problems.

Best regards,

Eugene

Message was edited by:

Eugene Khusainov

Message was edited by:

Eugene Khusainov

former_member188975
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Hi KJ,

As I am a moderator in the BI forum, I felt the need to step into the discussion here. I have also noticed the trend that you are talking about over here where more words and links equal to more points, and also the 'need' to post the same reply yet again when someone has already provided a correct solution to a question (in anticipation of a few stars). Usually we talk about people not rewarding enough, but here the issue is the opposite

As a moderator I can take action, but I think a collective/democratic decision, about what action to take, needs to be the first step. So what do you propose: Should points be reassigned to the first correct answer, should warnings be issued to the person who awards, or to the person who replies, do we need more education about how to use the forums, do we not assign any points to replies that just have links…

If you like, you can start a new discussion over here, or may be in the BI forums as I am not sure how many BI people visit this area. Lets see what others have to say and lets try to find the best thing to do...is the same common in other forums as well?

Regards,

Bhanu

Former Member
0 Kudos

Bhanu, it is common in other forums as well. I have found myself rewarding points for "effort" even after I have the answer I am looking for. I did not see this as a problem until now. I think a discussion here would be best and then have it taken to the other forums, if need be.

One thing that I always do is run a search first and then ask the question. However, I am not sure what to do if the question already exists and is unanswered. Do I interrupt the thread and ask my question (it will never be the exact question/needs) or do I create a new thread just for my question? I do not feel right if I "piggyback" off another thread because I am not able to give points for solving my problem, if I don't create the thread.

To answer your question, as to what action(s) should be taken, I feel that people should not assign points until their question is answered. Once the question is answered you assign points to the posts that helped you answer the question. However, if two people post the same answer (even if you know, by the time stamp, that they didn't copy each other) then you assign points to ONLY the first responder with that answer. I have just recently started to do this and it made my job of assigning points much easier.

As far as not assigning points that just have links, I am unsure if that would be best. Let me give you this example:

A few weeks ago I asked a question regarding output types (EK00) and how to edit the type (because it doesn't show in NACE). I finally figured out the answer myself by searching, using Google, and I pieced the answer together using several threads. I then, the next day, saw the same question asked. I simply provided a link to my original question as well as the links to the threads that helped me figure out the answer. In that case what should I have done? Should I have just provided the link to the answer or should I have repeated the answer? I provided the link in an attempt to guide the person to using the search feature.

Former Member
0 Kudos

If you check the first thread, you'll see that all of the answers were posted within ten minutes of the question being asked and the last one was six minutes after the first two. It seems likely that the last poster was still writing his answer while the other two were posting answers. I don't see a problem here.

Rob

Former Member
0 Kudos

Maybe in this case and other cases: yes. I myself sometimes also take my time to answer a unreplied or new thread. When I post it I do not check if there already is an correct answer given in the time that passed - that would not really be practical, would it - I would then have to open a new session, right? I agree it is difficult to determine when in fact an answer has been copied. I would prefer to give my collegues the benifit of the doubt in most cases.

kind regards,

mike

suresh_datti
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

>>>...is the same common in other forums as well?

but it is just that some are more 'generous' than others.. sometimes you unknowingly build a fan base & even a mere hello/how are you response gets some points..

I don't have any complaints though.. it is far more better than when users simply do not leave a feedback. & as such Moderators already are heavily loaded and it would be too much of an imposition to have them correct the threads that 'throw away' points..

~Suresh

Private_Member_9643
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

My intention of bringing this thread was only because of some TOP Contributor's are also doing the same what everyone is doing. I am nowhere bothered if someone is not assigning point to me or assigning it to anyone...here the question is not of points....I am trying to say TOP Contributors at least should maintain 'Rules of engagement' before they reply.

Now how Moderators can help:

1) Send mails to all active/top contributors (say more than 1000 points in forums) and remind them about some basic rules like reply to forum questions in an concise way, not to explain after & before in advance till they ask...it should be like Grouping a necessary objects only in a Transport Request....one should avoid replying if somebody already replied, and you feel answer to the question is fair enough. You can always add additional content if the earlier replies are not good enough.

2) Regarding assigning more points again the Contributors can only take initiative and say assign points to those who deserve the points.

How SDN Team can help:

1) Stop announcing free points for small small things, I know intention is just to appreciate people. But many SDNers think contributors are only replying for points which is not always true. Many of us reply to forums to stay in touch with issues which we have never faced, and when we get time we do reply to others to help them or to get more visibility. Though no one can deny the fact that points are the major factor which energized all to reply on forums constantly.

2) More moderators are required as per different time zones. Like Bhanu is taking care of BI Forums at US time zone perfectly, but moderators from other time zones also need to be active (specially India and Europe time zones). If some Moderator is not active on SDN anymore you should replace the Moderator with new one. Like I saw the link in Contributors Corner for 'Community Reporters' don't know what exactly they Reports? Make them active or give chance to others. People will not come to SDN and say to SDN give us chance to become Moderator. Not everyone is pro-active, but I am sure if SDN will ask them personally many of them are really interested in taking the initiative. Asking in the way of blogs is not the right way, as I know many TOP Contributors on forums, who rarely go to Weblogs sections.

Regarding copy-paste of previously thread, and replying them as own. I am with 100% in favor of it Copy-pasting an content is really not an easy job as it looks. It requires lot of effort in managing your own database of previous replied. If the answer is helping others it should not matter who is replying. Though its always better to provide reference to link of previous thread with the replies as well.

My 2 cents....

Kamaljeet @KJ

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hi KJ,

I have been observing this thread with some interest today, and I have already made my views clear in an earlier post. As a moderator, though, I have a few problems with your proposals...

Moderating is a voluntary job. We (presumably) all also have full time jobs. To ask moderators to take on tasks such as sending mails to all top contributors is simply something I do not have the time to do. I don't know about the other moderators, but I would think they would feel the same way.

Besides, I am having trouble seeing the harm in posting additional explanations to a thread. Additional information, after all, can help someone solve a similar, but not exact, problem in the future and can also help instill a problem solving methodology. I think the analogy is that we in the community should be teaching people how to fish, not just giving them a meal...

I repeat what I said before: <i>The best filter is the human filter: ignore the posts, laugh, and move on. There is nothing to see here, these are not the 'droids you are looking for...</i>

Best Regards,

Matt

Former Member
0 Kudos

KJ,

you really maintain a database of your replies? Wow!

I was already wondering for quiet some time how people are able to respond to a question within 2 minutes firing a full novel of explanation.

Someone please tell me that my 2nd thought is already reality too, that is, someone maintaining not only a database of replies but also a bot analyzing questions and automatically firing an answer. Often times i have this impression since the answers to some question seem to be a little bit "mechanical".

BTW, the drawback of copy&paste is the fact, that if you use the search function, you get one and the same reply over and over again. I think I already got one and the same answer posted about 15 times when doing a search.

anton

Private_Member_9643
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Anton,

I am in the process of building my own Database, started 10 days back only. But I am sure most of the TOP Contributors is having some kind of database maintained because of which you can see many replies within a minute.

Its good to have database for prompt replies. You can always add your words, and can provide link as reference for further analysis. Though providing links which is nowhere related to question is not good, but if without typing in your own words you can solve the problem...why to type ?

See the below thread as example from my partial database:)

Kamaljeet @KJ

Former Member
0 Kudos

Sometimes you get the impression a developer with little experience has received a functional specification and has no clue what to do with it. looking at the thread the then post on SDN you get the feeling they want other developers to do the work for them.

The literally expect cut and paste - ready to implement coding. You would normally expect someone to ask a question about a certain bottleneck or issue and give a detailed description of this problem. I find it somewhat bold to go about in this manner. I think this is not the way to conduct on SDN. It looks though that not everybody has a problem with this seeing all the responses these persons are receiving on there treads - on occasion I also responded, but pointed out that you need to put in your own effort and not solely rely on the answer you get. Development can usally only be mastered by hard work and long years of experience.

please check these links to see my point:

marilyn_pratt
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Wouldn't it make sense to build that kind of Database in the wiki where everyone could benefit from it? That way you surely decrease the noise ratio. I just followed some of the links here and saw that the answer pointing to the OSS note was given over and over again pretty much verbatim. Think about how that artificially inflates the size of the forums. And to Anton's point, its rather dehumanizing, uncommunity-like and not at all pleasant to think of the "bot" sitting there answering a question (perhaps incorrectly) before it is asked. That could generate further abuse. Scary. I guess we need to really think about how to reduce redundancy. I think more focused use of the wiki could help with that.

Private_Member_9643
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Marilyn,

I have the same plan to update Wiki Once I am done with my inital set of database.I just started it, and you can see my thread in the suggestions forum where I asked about how to go for the previous threads which I replied back in 2006, and the process is really very time consuming going back and searching your own post:( though I am trying atleast to ready with the threads which I replied earlier, so that I don't need to reply again and again for which I only replied earlier:)

Kamaljeet @KJ

former_member583013
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Woaw....I really never tought that my little post will become this big -:) I posted a long time ago and kinda forgot about it -:P

I think there's nothing wrong about having a DB for forum answers...I tought about once...But I just get lazy....Also, I try to think about my answers...even when someone has asked the same before....You can always came with a better answer...

As Marilyn said...It would be nice is that DB's become a part of the WIKI...That would we helpful....

As Anton said...Yeah....It explain how, in the time that takes me to read and think about an answer....two or three folks have already posted a "Help Sap" like answer....

Point to link on forums answers is not bad....but somethings it actually hides the answer....I mean....You don't search for an answer in the forum, to browse more links....You search the forum to read an written answer....

Just my 3 cents....And please don't write down the copper prize joke again LOL

Greetings,

Blag.

Answers (8)

Answers (8)

Former Member
0 Kudos

The whole idea of giving points seems to be not working here....same answer is given for a single questions many times...you can check SD Forum

Former Member
0 Kudos

I ran into a question so I did a search and my search brought me to this thread:

This is a classic example of people copying answers in an attempt to get points. I see this daily in the ABAP forum.

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hi Davis,

You posted the link to this very thread. =))))

Former Member
0 Kudos

Eugene, you are right. I guess I copied the wrong link. Here is the correct link (I hope )

Message was edited by:

Davis

Former Member
0 Kudos

I have noticed this too but I didn't realize that it was a new thing, being that I am new to ABAP and this community. At first I assumed that people were just posting at the same time but then I realized that wasn't the case when answers seemed to be identical.

Regards,

Davis

Former Member
0 Kudos

<p>Very interesting thread. But let's look at the basic question: what happened to the morality of the SDN members? Wouldn't it be great if others had the same morality as ourselves? The bottom line, though, is that it is an impossible tenent to acheive. You might as well ask people not to cut you off on the highway, or drive on the shoulder, etc. As much as we hate it, nothing we do can change the morality of the "bad apples".</p>

<p>It's basic human nature. Getting points is just a nice motivational tidbit for most of us. I am sure, though, that for others their basic compesentaion, promotion, etc. <i>depends</i> on them making posts, receiving points and so on. Even if the system is changed or tweaked in some way, as many in this thread have suggested, people with compensation on the line will find a "new" way to get their money that will likely be just as annoying. Your best bet would be to actually contact their supervisors and expose them...</p>

<p>The best filter is the human filter: ignore the posts, laugh, and move on. There is nothing to see here, these are not the 'droids you are looking for...</p>

<p>Just my two cents...</p>

<p>Best Regards,</p>

Matt

eddy_declercq
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Hi,

I find Matt's words a good integration/synthesis of our ideas and I would even suggest that we've come to a final conclusion now and can close this thread and concentrate on continuing to contribute remarkable things.

Eddy

-


Discover the new S(D)N search plugin for Internet Explorer 7 AND Firefox 2 in this <a href="/people/eddy.declercq/blog/2006/11/13/the-beloved-in-sweet-harmony log</a>

Former Member
0 Kudos

So, are there really people on these forums whose livelihood is dependent on how many SDN points they can gather together? I thought they were just for a bit of g33k kudos and gentle peer competition? Funny, I would have thought that if people were so desperate to receive points, you'd think they would be just as keen to be seen giving points and actually marking their threads as answered.

Surely all these "<i>send that document to my e-mail address, too</i>" posts can be removed by the introduction of a Private Message to a user? Or always publishing the user's e-mail address?

Or is it the premise that all correspondence should be kept public to properly share the knowledge?

Cheers

Lyal

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hi Lyal

I'm a great believer in keeping everything within the community. When people ask for material directly in a forum post, I will often suggest subtly that rather than send the material, the person should create a wiki page. Of course, this is normally ignored, but at least I have tried!

Cheers

Former Member
0 Kudos

The premise is that all correspondence should be kept public to properly share the knowledge.

When we can, moderators attempt to remove email addresses from posts.

There should be no reason to share material privately in the first place. The receiving, requesting or distributing of copyrighted material by any means other than those set forth by the owner of said material is against the law. DO NOT request such material nor distribute such material on SDN. If the material is public, then others probably have the same question/issue/problem and the entire community would then benefit through the knowledge sharing. That is the whole point of the forums, no?

Best Regards,

Matt

former_member185837
Active Participant
0 Kudos

And this is a good point!

As I suggest in another message of this thread, forums can benefit an awful lot of improvement if the Community is able to effectively self-regulate.

Cheers, <a href="https://wiki.sdn.sap.com/wiki/display/profile/Davide+Cavallari">Davide</a>

Former Member
0 Kudos

The subtly-proof is soooo cool. )

former_member583013
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Now...this is getting annoying...

And he got points for that! Can moderator do something about it??? That's why I post this thread in the first place -:)

Greetings,

Blag.

RichHeilman
Developer Advocate
Developer Advocate
0 Kudos

Unbelieveable, I wonder if anyone has confronted him about it. It seems that he copies and pastes the previous answer and then modifies it enough that he thinks we won't be able to see what he's doing.

I can reverse the points and delete his response, but is it my place to do so? Waiting to here from an SDN authority............

Regards,

RIch Heilman

Former Member
0 Kudos

I just sent him an email asking him politely to refrain from doing that.

Mario

RichHeilman
Developer Advocate
Developer Advocate
0 Kudos

Thanks Mario. Much Appreciation!

Regards,

RIch Heilman

former_member583013
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Great! I hope he stops his bad behavior -;)

Greetings,

Blag.

Former Member
0 Kudos

Oh well!!!

He actually has got more points in his account than many of the serious contributors.

I personally gets my work done using forum search (though, we can make the search more efficient, sometimes it really sucks!!!) and leave the answering part to rich and others.

sometimes I search forum for particular problem and it doesn't fetch proper posts; so then I'd go ahead and post my problem to see someone posting a link of previous replies for the problem I created this post for. (In fact I use all silly tricks to search that I use on google; What I'm missing??)

I really believe that making the forum search efficient with more options can reduce the number of duplicate questions being raised.

Blag,

Great Job!!!! I can only imagine, the guy muttering 'Morality Sucks!!!'

Regards,

PB

Former Member
0 Kudos

At the same time sometimes I'm equally surprised by the generosity of the SDN members.

Take a note on this link,

I've been given "very helpful answer" twice for the same post. At least the first reply was ok but the second was in fact a question asking him to be clear!!!! (Unless psychologically it had boosted his confidence and reminded him to be clear )

Regards,

PB

Former Member
0 Kudos

lol.

i once managed to get 24(!!) points in one thread, a stepwise approach to a solution. i was very surprised too, that this is possible and was in doubt if this makes sense and if that might lead to fraud.

actually i wanted to find out what the max of points is one person can get in one thread, but forgot about investigating then.

cheers,

anton

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hi guys,

If we thought that copying and paste the code of a post is bad, what do you think about talking out loud the personal life of other members?. I think this is the worst of it, check this out

What could we do about it?.

Regards,

Eric

Message was edited by:

Eric Hernandez Pardo

Former Member
0 Kudos

User will be locked, inappropriate comments from this user were deleted.

Thank you for pointing out.

Mario

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hi Anton

I ended up to 26 for a single post the other day, but it was a bug...

Cheers

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hi All,

Other than the race for points I would like to bring up one more issue in the forum.

If you find any thread with more than 1 page of reply(treat this as exception) be sure that someone has promised to send some document to the thresd owner, and then starts the numerous requests by visitors to send the document to their respective email id.

an example: /thread/262620 [original link is broken]

I do think it is a morality issue as if the document is public it should be attached to the forum and not sent to individual users. Also it saves the owner of repetatively sending it to multiple users.

Lets discuss

Regards

Santanu Dawn

former_member583013
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Hi Santanu:

I totally agree with you -:) One guy said..."I got a manual, I can send it to your mail"....After 5 seconds....You got like 10 replays asking for the same manual.....I should be public as you said....

In the Spanish ABAP Forums....that happens all the time....and even when I try to stop it....It still happens.....Here....In a large forum like this, it's going to be harder.....

Thanks for pointing this...I really hope we can find a solution also -:D

Greetings,

Blag.

marilyn_pratt
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

As forum moderators, we are often interacting with the community, asking to make content public and trying to modify this behavior. The best solution would be that whenever someone want to "attach" (which is not possible in the forum), they should consider taking that content to the wiki. Although technically they can't "attach" there either, they can chunk the contents and not only make it available, but make it editable, and may garner points and praise if the contents are valuable in the process.

The community could continue to voice the request to "wiki it".

Former Member
0 Kudos

Marilyn,

Practical question (unfortunately I'm practitioner of such "mail me and I'll send you" behavior):

There is a demand for certain WebAS functionality. I know how to solve problem. But "solution" is actually a workaround and uses "dirty tricks" like Java reflection over undocumented classes. Posting such code is forbidden (at least in WD Java forum where moderators are polite but restrictive Not sure that this would be acceptable as Wiki entry.

Hmmm... But I know that my solution works in NW04 and in NW04s. It's a developer-only tool (and great time saver). What options I have?

Probably SDN can run a sand-box for such third-party code (optionally, with internal review SAP review) ?..

VS

pokrakam
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Another very valid reason to send something by mail: info bordering on confidential that you don't think is appropriate for world+dog to see but will help some poor soul. I've also both given and received "Please keep this to yourself" type info in the past.

Why not send it straight to the person that needs it without broadcasting the fact? Oh, of course people don't always provide an email in their business card. Well, I say that's their loss (and don't get me started on anonymous names....).

Cheers,

Mike

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hi,

I want to make another suggestion, beside the hunger of points or the issue that is usual that a thread doesn't give points to anyone neither close the thread after it has been answered. It would be nice to have an automatic email sender, in order to remember the person who opens the thread that he or she hasn't close the thread after a considerable amount of days (maybe after a week).

This may help to reduce the amount of open threads that are all spread in the forum, and will help the newbies from asking the same questions over and over cause they may think that and open thread means that it is not answer correctly.

Regards,

Eric

Pd. The ratio thing sounds great, what should we do in order to start working with that pointing system?

Message was edited by:

Eric Hernandez Pardo

marilyn_pratt
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Valery,

Thanks to you and Mike for pointing out some instances when it might be appropriate to have more private conversations. But I'm sure you both understood the point behind encouraging more public information sharing. I'm not familiar with the restrictiveness of the WD Java forum moderators but I'm thinking of some of the ideas used in the<a href="http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/tim/news/2005/09/30/what-is-web-20.html">Web 2.0 Meme Map</a> which I found really interesting: <b>trust your users, radical trust, radical decentalization</b>. I bet there are plenty of us struggling with how to live those kinds of principles here. Perhaps that is also the job of a community evangelist, to encourage courageous participation.

I may be going out on a limb, but the "dirty tricks" seem to me the magic worth sharing with a broader population. Let those who disagree defend themselves and their more structured approach.

The sandbox idea sounds excellent, and I believe it is one that my collaboration partners have been kicking around. I would suggest raising it as a separate thread so it doesn't get lost here in all the morality noise

Former Member
0 Kudos

hi,

though there may of course be candid motivations to share some materials some times for the reasons mentioned, let's name the real reason for that 'pattern' frankly: People most often share materials which would be considered illegal to be shared for copyright and similar issues(course materials, copies of boooks, etc...).

And with all respect, a professional place like SDNcan't and shouldn't tolerate this.

anton

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hi Anton,

I agree with your point, but you have to agree that when someone ask for that kind of illegal material, always theres someone asking to close the thread. It's a good idea to share any type of legal information.

Regards,

Eric

Former Member
0 Kudos

SDN/BPX does not tolerate sharing of illegal material and if it's legal then upload it to SDN/BPX and we will put it where everyone can get it.

Former Member
0 Kudos

Can we control the way points are given for copyright material being sent across for few points. There should be someway to upload the documents directly somehere in SDN as this might help to control distribution of copyright material. Also points should be disabled for the post which are given for documents being sent.

I have noted some leading users in SAP Business Solution have earned their points be distribution of documents which are either confidential for their company or by SAP.

Also, how about giving some kinda of rating to the SDN Users.

Gaurav

marilyn_pratt
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

When moderators are aware of this kind of behavior, threads are locked, users are deleted and generally there is a stern response.

Putting copyright material on SDN that belongs to another SAP entity (say SAP Education) is also not acceptable. Materials that are not to be distributed on a public website should not be uploaded on SDN or elsewhere.

pokrakam
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

I think what Gaurav is referring to is not actually putting it on SDN, but .

marilyn_pratt
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

This should be handled by the moderators.

We usually delete the email addresses, and admonish the senders and lock the thread.

I've done this for the thread you point to, but it is only scalable if the individual forum moderators support.

Former Member
0 Kudos

Maybe there are forums where the traffic of posts are more and the number of moderators are less. How about increasing the number of moderators for such forums.

What is the eligibility for becomming a Moderator?

Gauravjit.

Former Member
0 Kudos

The moderators generally don't do the job full time! It's a part time, thankless task and I believe that the rest of the community can help them.

For example, if you see something silly or strange, reply to the person and let them know that you don't think it's OK to behave that way. Most people do the wrong thing inadvertently, and a gentle remined can bring them back in line. The moderators should only get involved with repeat or serious offenders.

Cheers

marilyn_pratt
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Mike is correct that each and every community member can be a good community citizen. And in answer to the question of how to become a moderator, by outstanding and constant and supportive and remarkable community behavior.

Take a look at the likes of Bhanu Gupta, Rich Heilman, Arun Varadarajan to see examples of exemplary behaviour.

Example:

<a href="https://forums.sdn.sap.com/profile.jspa?userID=592540">Arun Varadarajan</a>

<a href="https://forums.sdn.sap.com/profile.jspa?userID=131200">Rich Heilman</a>

[url=https://forums.sdn.sap.com/profile.jspa?userID=547795]Bhanu Gupta[/url]

former_member583013
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Sad but true...That happens everywhere...In the Spanish ABAP Forums (Where I'm the main moderator) it's common to see threads asking for documentation...One guy ask for example a SapScript manual...and minutes later you have 15 guys asking for the same and including their mails....It's really hard to keep order.....I'm glad that not happening to the SDN...Or at least they're just isolated posts....

The work is not to the moderators...It's for the community....When can't just sit back and wait for the moderator to start closing thousands of posts....We need to help by informing the SDN Team....But telling those guys that they're are doing wrong....

Just my 3 cents...And please don't make that copper joke again -:P LOL

Greetings,

Blag.

Former Member
0 Kudos

Try searching the ABAP Development forum for the word "subtly".

I don't know which is worse - the same question being asked over and over again or the same answer being cut and pasted over and over again - sometimes three times in one thread.

Rob

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hi,

I just browsed a little bit the ABAP forums. What I see is that sometimes answers really criss-cross, being nearly at the same time (0-2 minutes). As long as they look different enough I think that's what's happening in the rush for points.

Especially with coding it's difficult, when the original poster had the coding included, multiple people might figure out what the problem was at the same time.

But, if the answer comes multiple minutes or days later and is or includes a "free-form" text and this text is the same then in an answer above, then this is not right, I agree.

If something like this happens, report it to sdn@sap.com including the link to the post. We will then look at it and eventually contact the user.

And a moderator (like Rich) can always edit and delete such a posting.

Mario

former_member583013
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Hi Mario:

Nice -:) I think that's even better than my WIKI of Shame -:P

Starting tomorrow I'm going to be a dog watch for the forums -;) And of course...I'm only going to report forums post that really needs to be informed.....I don't want to flood the moderator e-mail -:)

Greetings,

Blag.

Former Member
0 Kudos

Let's call them "users-with-a-flexible-interpretation-of-the-SDN/BPX-rules-of-engagement"

Otherwise "criminal", "villain", "moron" or some other creative shame-names are too harsh...

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hello Moderators,

It would not be easy to monitor all entries and punish/warn people who clone previous messages just to try to "gain some extra points". One idea though, may be to work on the other side, motivate people to only award points to the original answer. This could be achieved with a short descriptive e-mail on how to award points, and maybe even open up a negative point score so that users may punish such infractions themselves if deemed necessary ...

Just a thought.

Regards.

Former Member
0 Kudos

> It would not be easy to monitor all entries and

> punish/warn people who clone previous messages just

> to try to "gain some extra points". One idea though,

> may be to work on the other side, motivate people to

> only award points to the original answer. This could

> be achieved with a short descriptive e-mail on how to

> award points, and maybe even open up a negative point

> score so that users may punish such infractions

> themselves if deemed necessary ...

Unfortunately we can only email those who opted to receive the newsletter which is not everyone (why I don't understand) so that would be a "hit or miss" solution and of course a duplicate of our "<a href="https://wiki.sdn.sap.com/wiki/display/HOME/RulesofEngagement">rules of engagement</a>"

Also not so sure a "negative" system is what is needed we are looking for "positive reenforcement" here not a focus on the negative.

former_member583013
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Ok...No mails then -:P and what about my <b>Wall of Shame</b>??? Extra work right? -:'(

Greetings,

Blag.

RichHeilman
Developer Advocate
Developer Advocate
0 Kudos

I agree with Craig, I believe that the "Wall of Shame" would fall under the negative.

Regards,

Rich Heilman

former_member583013
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

> I agree with Craig, I believe that the "Wall of

> Shame" would fall under the negative.

Ok -:'( It was not my brightest idea -:D So....It's seems that the only valid alternative is to remember everyone that the Rules of Engagement were written for a reason...Maybe the Grumpy Old Man can to blog about it.....I miss the Grumpy -:(

Greetings,

Blag.

Former Member
0 Kudos

How about the ability to set a flag for a post to say that it's a duplicate reply? It could be set by anyone, but generally would be by the person who thinks another reply duplicated their own. The flag would remove any points for that reply and would also hide it from the general population.

The moderator would only get involved if the duplicate poster wanted to make an issue of it, which would hopefully be infrequent.

Just an idea...

marilyn_pratt
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

I'm suddenly struck by the thought that we have a problem here that many corporate forums would envy: People fighting to answer questions.

Also,look at the number of caring community members and moderators discussing this: Inspiring. This is really a remarkable community.

former_member583013
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Your right Marilyn, this post had generated a lot of traffic, wich is of course great, because it means that the people care about the community -:)

I just hope we can find a nice solution to this problem -;)

Greetings,

Blag.

Former Member
0 Kudos

- "Fighting for answers"

Marilyn, you put the right spot on it. Other communities would be happy about our "problems"

- "I just hope we can find a nice solution to this problem"

With such a culturally diverse audience, we could ask for local torture methods. Or we simply ask Craig to send such a "criminal" hundreds of SDN T-Shirts. That should be punishment enough

Former Member
0 Kudos

Even better would be a t-shirt with "I cheated for my points on SDN". People would only want one of those...

eddy_declercq
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Blag,

Don't worry. He's (still) not retired and will be back soon.

Eddy

Former Member
0 Kudos

No more t-shirts!!!!

I'll give everyone a bit of inside information (always looking for a way to get fired you know)

The "Wall of Shame" is actually on the books - Mark and I requested it, after a rather brutal time about a year ago, however it was to be slightly different.

John asked 20 questions but rewarded only 18 points, 1 question was marked solved, 19 questions had replies.

Would be the kind of entry you would see with a link to "John" and the ability to "BLOCK" John's questions meaning you could filter his out and no longer see them until he reached a new level like:

John asked 20 questions and rewarded only 178 points, 15 questions was marked solved, 20 questions had replies.

Then the filters for EVERYONE woould be automatically removed and his questions would then be visible again. (note: all "solved questions" would be visible regardless of filters - only those not solved)

Now "John" would have the ability to go into a question - set a new flag saying that "thanks for the answers but the problem is still there anyone else" then giving you the option a new flag to decide if you wanted to view the unsolved question or not.

We decided against it though for multiple reasons two main ones were

1. Resources and costs

2. negative reenforcement as opposed to positive

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hello Craig,

It is a pleasure to be in a forum with clear rules and objectives, specially one which works based on motivation and not discouragement.

The objetive would be to make people to reconsider before posting an answer to that already has been given, afterall it does not add any value to the post. We have seen some options here, but unfortunately most fall into a "negative" reenforment aspect.

Following up on the e-mail idea, it was not well suited because it wont reach everyone, but maybe an online message above the question posts a simple orientation on how to award point may achieve some result. I agree that this may duplicate our rules of engagement, but if it is already on screen people will read it, reenforcing that only good original answers is what is needed to achieve points.

Best regards!

Alex

Former Member
0 Kudos

Ahh but then we loose screen space for the main purpose - the question/answer. It's a thought though.

Former Member
0 Kudos

I guess we will have to find some creative way to do it without compromising screen space ... .

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hi,

One way which might not be very taxing to the moderators is what has been designed in our SAPSUPERUSERS's community.

Here every user has a allowance of 5 errors. Every time a negetive activity is proved one allowance is scratched off. And after five scratches the user is permanently banned from the forum.

Sure you can re register with a different alias, but you loose all your points and you need to restart from scratch which these kind of users surely dont want. And its no issue if they stop posting cause its anyway not adding any value to the forum.

Also this penalty system can be used for any type of "criminal/immoral" activities in the forum.

Comming back to the named criminal in the post, just get into the users recent messages & u will see that every single post is not the first and has some form of copy & paste.

This sure needs to stop.

Regards

Santanu Dawn

former_member583013
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

That guy again....Now I wonder how he get so many points....If I were to copy every Rich post...I would be on the 10K club -:P That guy must stopped somehow...

About banning a user...I don't think because it falls in the "negative" field...Also...I don't think we want thousand of useless users.....Even when they take the risk of losing all points....I'm sure that there's some people that still going to act like copycats....People can so dumb sometimes....

Greetings,

Blag.

pokrakam
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

What I see a lot of is the shotgun approach that results in dodgy or even blatantly wrong advice given based on little knowledge but in the hope of gaining a couple of points.

So I'd suggest some kind of Signal to Noise Ratio concept.

Responses to questions (other than their own) divided by points awarded.

e.g.

10 responses to other people's question with 2 points awarded gives a SNR of 0.2.

10 good answers which gained the poster 15 points however gives 1.5.

Need to find a nice way to muliply the numbers and call it something everyone can relate to. Maybe muliply by 10 to give a "answer scoring" where the first user in the example gets a rating of 2 and the other 15.

marilyn_pratt
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

We do get a window into that by looking at the ratio of posts to points

Looks like your signal to noise ratio is very good, by the way.

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hi Guys,

I agree with all your comments, I want to add something to the comments of Mario Herger. In my case, i'm not a native english speaker and i'm also a little slow writing in english. So many times when i want to answer a thread, i click the replay option and at the same time i'm loggin on in a new session of SAP in english, just to check the correct name of each thing. Finally when i post my answer somebody else already response.

Another point is what comments Alvaro Tejada:

"Now....Are people just Point Hunters??? Or the want so badly to help people that they didn't loose time reading the other answers???".

In my particular case, I always read the responses that already exist, but í'm aware that it happends when there are many urls on the response that you can get confuse and post an URL that was already on another answer.

I think the best way to change this kind of behavior on the forum, is to start looking a way to change the people's mind. Right now i don't have enough time to read all the comments, but i agree with Valery Silaev suggestion

"Do not remove duplicates, instead reply to such post, include URL to your original post and text of duplicate you are replying on (so if one will edit duplicate you always can show text and prove your claim).

Set severity to MEDIUM if it is post in other thread, set severity to HIGH if this is re-post of answer in same thread.

The person who will reward points probably will make right decision. Most importantly, other users will see who's gaming the system."

Regards,

Eric

former_member583013
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Hi Eric:

I'm neither a native english speaker, so I get your point -:) Was I was talking about, is when someone post and answer and 10 or 20 minutes later...Someone else posts the same answer....Or when someone post a code and someone else posts the same code....As Rich someone tells me....Great minds thinks alike....But....too people writing the same code...is kinda hard for me....Specially when where are talking about Rich codes....

I have read all posts on Valery's blog....I recommend you to read them is you have some spare time -:)

Greetings,

Blag.

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hi Alvaro,

I already knew you are not a native english speaker, cause sometime ago i read one of your blogs regarding the backup of Z tables definitions and i'm started to get interested in all your post (the same occurs with other people in the forum that i think have many things to teach). What i meant was that sometimes I feel like i post an answere that is almost the same (not exactly, neither copy and paste) of someone else.

Thanks a lot for your recommendation, next week i cand find some time to start reading it.

Regards,

Eric

Message was edited by:

Eric Hernandez Pardo

Former Member
0 Kudos

We all sometimes post answers that are basically the same as an earlier one.

Sometimes it's a relatively simple question with a simple answer - you quite often see a number of similar posts in the first few minutes.

Sometimes it's a complicated question and takes some people longer to come up with a good answer.

I hadn't thought about language, but that will of course be an issue.

But I think the issue here is not of people arriving at the same conclusion after however long it takes to come up with an answer. The issue is people simply cutting and pasting a previous answer and posting it as there own idea. (See my comment about searching the forum for the word "subtly". You'll find the same answer posted many, many times.)

Rob

former_member583013
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Hi Rob:

I actually do the "subtly" forum search....I get shocked -:O I never thought that the same answer could be useful for that large number of questions -:P

The problem more that answer the same thing....It's when the same thing is posted after 5 or more minutes....I mean....If you know that SE38 and SE80 are use for ABAP programming....You don't need 6 more answer to be sure about that.....

Greetings,

Blag.

pokrakam
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Hi Marilyn,

Thanks Regarding ratio of posts to points, I don't think that is an accurate gauge. A low point count mostly tells me that the person is a novice. Hence I was suggesting a scoring system that only counts answers to other peoples' questions.

Cheers,

Mike

marilyn_pratt
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Little puzzled by this statement: "Responses to questions (other than their own) divided by points awarded."

You don't get points for answering your own questions (legally anyway).

Although your method seems more scientific, one can also get a good feel for valuable participation by looking at the ratio. Even newbies start to evolve patterns of post response/points.

Questions you ask are tallied separately, so there is no negative impact on that ratio.

pokrakam
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

OK, will explain with a different approach: Only posts eligible for points should be counted for purposes of a ratio. This would <i>only</i> include posts responding to <i>other</i> people's questions. This is neutral, since it gives a newbie an equal chance by simply making sure they know the answer is good/correct before posting. Which I think is good and encourages them to participate in a positive way and with a little bit of thought instead of pasting 'subtle' quotes

e.g. should not count towards such a ratio. Yet it's 5 posts towards a current total of 24 posts / 10 questions. So if - hypothetically - he answered 1 question and got two points it looks the same as if he'd answered 10 questions and gotten 2. Two different pictures which currently look the same.

marilyn_pratt
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Thanks. That's very clearly explained now. The concern also could be that people fear clarification or response because it "counts against them". But the flip side is that one might also look carefully before posting, because every addition changes the ratio (including a reply such as this one I am making). I "lose", as you did for additional posting, but I also weigh how much or little I will converse, which sometimes is a good thing .

pokrakam
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Ah, but then this thread is not a question, thus not eligible for points and wouldn't count

I guess I'm kinda comparing this to the good old SAP-R3-L days (of which the Workflow mailing list is still a strong surviving remnant). There are no points and the quality of posts is higher. Just trying to come up with a middle ground...

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hi Mike,

Do not think a low point count necessarily means a novice. I answer few questions due to the fact that often there are already correct replies by the time I get to them as the Europe and US etc often see and answer them while I am, and the rest of Australia are, still in bed.

Surely a quick check of the general quality of the answers coming from those with unusually rapid points growth would expose those who really don't have the knowledge to back up their points status.

Gareth

pokrakam
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Hi Gareth,

I wasn't suggesting that, sorry if it came across that way. I was using a novice as comparison base because they would typically have a lot of questions and very little answers.

Yes I do occasionally do the same quick check, but with the growing amount of noise (unfortunately), this is starting to become tedious. Thus counting only answers vs points awarded is a more automated version of this quick check.

Your 39 posts vs 32 points gives a 'reliable poster' impression However a novice may have 100 posts and 10 points. If he asked 95 questions and only answered a handful when he was absolutely sure of his answers, that should still count in his favour. Or what about people who participate a lot in discussions that are not questions - this should also not count, this is what my suggestion was about.

Have fun,

Mike

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hey Mike,

I believe the point ratio idea is excellent.Awesome sugestion btw!!

Here is another point that may have to be considered. Based on the original idea that only point eligible posts would be considered, we could have threads that you post more than one answer in order to further explain a previous post or a reply to another doubt, or even try to understand clearly what is being asked.

Thinking about this and understanding that in theory we should only get 0/2/6/10 for that question, although currently, we are allowed to issue points to the same person more than once per post. So the question would be, if you posted 3 answer in the same thread and got 10 points for solving the question should your ratio reflect an average of 10 points or 3.33 (assuming that was the only thread you answered and those were the only posts for point eligibilty).

An extension on the idea could be an average ratio per question answered, considering only the highest point awarded per question.

Kind Regards,

Alex

eddy_declercq
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Hi,

Pls bear in mind that a point ratio points/posts only will work when the person posting the question will actually award points, which isn't always the case (diplomatically said). See also /people/eddy.declercq/blog/2006/07/21/from-the-grumpy-old-man-sdn-kindergarten and other Grumpies

Posting in threads like this will put also you ratio down btw

Eddy

-


Pimp up the S(D)N site and earn points. Check this <a href="/people/eddy.declercq/blog/2007/02/01/pimp-up-the-jam log</a> for details

former_member583013
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

I agree with you Eddy, most of the time, the questions are answered but not points awarded....That's something that must change too, because it's an important part of the SDN Morality...

Greetings,

Blag.

pokrakam
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Hi Eddy,

If a ratio is only calculated on 'eligible' posts (i.e. answers to others' questions) this posting would have no effect.

The reverse should also work: a questions asked vs points-awarded-per-answer average.

Cheers,

Mike

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hi, interesting stuff you're all writing on this topic.

I'm a member since 04 but I usually only read the articles, get the input I need for work-related developmetn issues and download some things. A couple of weeks ago I decided it was my turn to try and give something back to the community. This is not an easy thing as I found out. It's quite difficult to understand some issues and be accurate in your answer.

After sending in my first post I realized a lot of guys are quicker on the draw then me. So be it. I 'm finding out that giving something back and trying to share my knowledge is always a good thing. But at first it was a bit irritating that what I think was a correct answer didn't get through on the other side. By now I'm over that and just react to threads that I can think I can contribute. If people give me feedback on that and I helped them towards a solution then that is a good thing and it feels kind of rewarding.

I attached my first post to illustrate my first steps on this still brilliant platform.

True, i was it bit sad I didn't get a problem solved on that occasion

kind regards

mike

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hi Mike,

You'd better open a new thread with the description of your problem. You'll get much more attention.

RichHeilman