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In defense of point system

Former Member
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Lot of posts keep asking to be done with the SDN points system, I disagree.

- did the point system motivate contributors, does it continue to do so?

- Do you still get answers to your question, or get the similar treatment you got earlier here at SDN?

- Are all the top contributors (or say 90%) genuinely good in their expertise and suggestions offered here?

- If you dare count, would you say 'gamers' and 'abusers' are a miniscule minority in terms of absolute numbers?

- What do you think is exactly wrong with trying to gain points?

- Do you remember who was the original (points = thanks) poster on SDN? That would be Roberto Negro - a top contributor. Do you think he was a point hunter? Was he not right in seeking recognition through points- given his contributions/weblogs are a great read even 3 years later?

- Now that I am naming names, go back and check Bhanu's interview with SDN folks if you will. Follow Rich Heilman's points progress here. See what made Craig an evangelist here. For them and for many more, points were a driving factor - and it did do a lot of good to a lot of people who got helped along.

I can go on and on - as to why, though imperfect, points system is good for SDN.

There are many suggestions to improve upon and get it cleaned up a bit. All such suggestions need discussion. But I strongly disagree with a sweeping suggestion of doing away with it, with some offenders being cited as the rationale for such a step.

Make no mistake - SDN is hugely successful. And a large part of the success has come from the points model. I am amazed at Mark F and his team's vision and work on it.

Points system is a great incentive to a lot of people causing a lot of good here - and precisely for that reason it needs to be strengthened and bolstered and not retired.

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Answers (11)

Former Member
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I agree with Ajay - the points system is not perfect and needs improvement, but should not be abandoned completely.

I only started reading and replying to posts recently (following an event in Melbourne that included an SDN community network day that I attended), and will never get to the level of points of some of the top posters (that sounds like something that you hang on the wall - perhaps it should be "postees"). I dont answer questions for the points - most of the time I answer because I find problem solving interesting, or because I have seen the problem before and am happy to share the answer. Getting points for a post is a bonus and is an acknowledgement that the person asking the question has read and appreciates the advice given. It also gives a good feeling when they post a final "thanks" message in the thread to acknowledge that they have learned something new or made use of the solution.

There are a lot of irrelevant and useless posts in SDN making it harder to spot the questions that deserve good answers, and there are a lot of bad answers that make it even harder for the inexperienced question asker to tell what is good advice and what is bad. This is the area that needs to be improved - but I have no real idea on what is the best solution.

However, if the price of removing the "clutter" is to make it harder for "real" questions to be posted, then there is a danger of people with "interesting" problems turning to other sources and further diluting the quality of the forums. Enforced searching may fall in this category.

I generally look at posts with only a small number of replies, and dont even bother checking posts where the same name has posted multiple questions sequentially or across forums. It would be nice if there were better filter options on the forum lists so an inclusion or exclusion list could be built and saved as a default in your profile. Perhaps if these types of posts are ignored they will go away (look there go some flying pigs!)

I believe that some form of prompting for questioners to close their posts would be a good thing. It's amazing how some posts have multiple almost identical answers posted. This can happen when the times are close if it takes time to type the answer, but when the same answer is posted hours or days later this is an obvious points grab. If the threads were closed this would be less of an issue.

I agree that more moderators would help - but finding people with the time and skills for this is likely to mean demand always is greater than supply. I don't know what tools moderators have available to them, but I suggest that making a sure that moderator actions are as simple as possible (eg single click on link to remove post) would make their job easier and would enable best use of their time.

Andrew

KKilhavn
Active Contributor
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> However, if the price of removing the "clutter" is to make it harder for "real" questions to be posted,

> then there is a danger of people with "interesting" problems turning to other sources and further

> diluting the quality of the forums. Enforced searching may fall in this category.

I don't believe it falls in that category, as people who had parents teaching them manners will always search the forum for an already answered question before posting. It wouldn't be much of a hassle after having spent 5 or 20 hours trying to solve the problem on your own. It is mostly a hassle for those who haven't spent 20 seconds trying to solve it on their own.

That said, this would not solve all problems, but I believe it would help. Why else would SAP create a solution which forces a search before you raise a new customer message?

Former Member
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Oooooh - Chocolate teapot. I could use one of them.

Rob

Former Member
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There's an irony of posting this thread in the forum without points, which is the only one in which you can hear yourself think

The problem with the point system is that it rewards volume, not quality. You receive the same amounts of points for telling a new programmer what a SELECT statement is than you do for solving a problem that has had a senior developer scratching his head for weeks.

The point system encourages people to post yes, but the lack of aggressive moderation also causes them to guess, as Andrew Marshall's FOR ALL ENTRIES post highlighted. Find a thread, find a keyword and F1 lookup or search, and post the result whether it bears any resemblance to the original post!

The thing is, I think most people ignore the number of points against a persons name anyway and gauge from a persons posts whther they know what they're talking about.

Sadly the SDN forums for me are about as much use as a chocolate teapot. Far too much spam, too much guessing and it's driving people away. SDN successful? Well it certainly has a large volume of posts, sadly the average questions and answers should be deleted.

Former Member
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"Far too much spam, too much guessing and it's driving people away."

There is a lot of great information on this forum. I know because I, mostly, taught myself SAP and ABAP through this forum. However, you are right, there is way too much spam and guessing on the forum. It is amazing to me how many responses have NOTHING to do with the original question. It is almost like, as you said, they look for a few keywords and do an F1 search. I have asked many "newb" questions and specifically asked for them not to quote F1 help yet the first few responses were quotes from the help.

Sometimes people, like me, need to see more than one explanation in order to fully understand the concept behind the code.

It is getting very frustrating to search for a topic only to find the same question asked 100+ times. It takes a lot of time and patience to search through SDN. However I have yet to find a forum with as much useful ABAP help as SDN. Until I find one I will be using SDN.

KKilhavn
Active Contributor
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> The problem with the point system is that it rewards

> volume, not quality. You receive the same amounts of

> points for telling a new programmer what a SELECT

> statement is than you do for solving a problem that

> has had a senior developer scratching his head for

> weeks.

Which is why, in addition to the forced search, one should introduce a solution similar to the one on Experts Exchange, i.e. people have to assign a number of points they will award for a solution to a problem.

There is only one issue with this concept, and that is that experienced people, who join SDN looking for help with a complex issue, will not have a lot of points to assign. That's a minor problem though (if a problem at all), as they could gather a fair number of points in a matter of a few days by assisting others.

By allowing me to also filter (or sort) questions (e.g. I only want to see questions with more than 50 points awarded) people could focus on their own expertise level and thus wouldn't have to get annoyed by all the noise.

Other solutions can of course be just as good, but I think the forced search should get priority. I don't know if someone (one of the moderators) are gathering suggestions that come up here in the coffee corner, but here are some:

  • from you join until you have received 50 points, your question has to be approved by a moderator before it will be available. Moderators can click "Accepted", "Rejected, see online help", "Rejected, see FAQ", "Rejected, wrong forum", "Rejected, not enough information", or one of the 10 or so other rejection buttons.

  • ignore list allowing me to ignore all questions asked by user X the next 3 months.

  • buttons to award additional points for already answered questions when you find the answer helpful (as it is now people who answer questions and are interested in climbing to the point podium are actually not interested in people finding previously answered questions) - this could cost you e.g. 1 point while the minimum award for a new question could be 5 points

  • restrict the number of open questions a user can have to make people close their questions as either unanswered or answered

  • possibility to ban users from asking questions for 4 days, 2 weeks or 2 months to "teach them a lesson" and force them to use other channels to find answers to their (basic beginner) questions.

I am sure that with (or without for those who prefer it) a good dose of alcohol and a weekend we could brainstorm hundreds of suggestions. If three of those could be implemented the forums could probably become a lot better.

Those who think the forums work fine as they do should take a look at the performance & tuning forum. I thought I would enjoy it, but I left it quite soon. I don't ever plan to become a regular in the general ABAP forum.

I can agree with parts of the view that assistance to a newbie is as important as assistance to an experienced person. However, as I have said numerous times in discussions about this topic: many beginner questions can be solved either by looking at the online help or simply trying things out oneself, the real value of a peer forum (in my opinion) is the assistance you can get with questions to which no answer can be found in the online help or OSS and where you have tried to solve it on your own.

So, the real problem is not that some people get a lot of points for searching online help for others. The only damage does is to some people's self-esteem. The real problem is that some of the more experienced people leave the forums, because the reward (learning from problems others have) is not worth the time needed to keep up to date on SDN.

In my opinion, SAP should be more worried about losing 100 SDN regulars with a lot of experience than losing 100 000 beginners who can't be bothered to read online help.

I used to subscribe to the ASUG Workflow e-mail list, but decided I would switch to SDN (I don't really want to spend time in two forums for the same purpose), where the reward you get is that you can expect that someone will try to help you the day you have a problem. No T-shirt, no rankings, nothing.

Well... time to get back to work, perhaps?

dhorions
Contributor
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Are there people here that are also a member of the other sdn (Sun developer Network)? Does their

<a href="http://developers.sun.com/forums/dukestars/index.jsp">DukeStars</a> program have the same problems? If not, how do they do it?

I understand there, you have to earn the points you reward others with, which looks like a good idea, although when you drop below 15 reward points, you get 25 new ones.

Former Member
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Does point system motivate people to answer?

- Yes it does. It may not be the sole reason, but is certainly a big influencer. Ask those who have answered a lot AND answered it well.

People looking at current top contributors list and sneering should stop doing so and think.

- Repetition of questions happened 2 years ago, and it happens now. The participation has increased 10 fold, so the least you should expect is a 1000% increase in repetition of posts. If it is only that much (though unhealthy for any forum) it is not any indicator of things having 'worsened'.

- If points (and therefore recognition) didn't drive people, every other SAP forum (and there are many) would have been as successful. It is not only the number of posts/participants, even the quality of answers and general discussion on SDN is much better than other such forums where it is mostly a vestigal back-patting group of tens or hundreds people tearing apart any newcomer who strays their way. There are great altruistic guys there, but the number is not enough to sustain those forums, and eventually it becomes stale or dead.

- If point system wasn't there, newcomers and their questions wouldn't have been as welcome, I can surely see advices like 'SAP is not for you, Kid' flying around in the forums if there were no points. Whether a flood of newbie questions is good or not is debatable, but as long as SDN is a platform to support learning for all groups I can only say that point system is enabling it achieve that purpose. Without points, there would have been 5 smart alec answers to each 'silly' question - in the end turning it into truly idiots club (which probably some of us want it to be).

- Has the answers by current top contributors not been helpful? Are these less helpful than others given in earlier times? How do we judge that? Surely people assigning points have found them useful.

- If we can eliminate gaming and dubious point-scoring, it will be much better than it is today. But if we eliminate points system without having another positive reinforcer to motivate people, I do not see why it will not become another sapprofessional.org, sapgenie.com, sapfans.com, ittoolbox/sap, r3list and so on. If someone thinks any of these or similar others were at any point any better on any scale than SDN is today, I strongly question that.

To Rudy's analogy with Wikipedia, it stumps me. I cannot refute it, however there is a difference. On SDN, we are contributing the same knowledge that earns our bread, whereas in wikipedia it is more of a hobby or extra-curricular{?}. If I become a great wikipedia contributor, it is still a voluntary exercise, however if I become a gread SDN contributor it may facilitate my career growth (maybe write a book, get better contract,...whatever else). So I am doing good here, but at the same time a recognition (in form of points) may be a tangible benefit that I deserve and get in return. As long as the system works, everyone benefits from it.

In Hindu philosophy(and maybe in others) the importance of giving without expectations is stressed thus - "Give - with one hand - such that even the other hand doesn't know of.'

We can strive for such altruistic levels, a recognition system like points can only help till we reach there.

Me? I am only unhappy with my old TShirts. Maybe SDN will be kind enough to upgrade those for free.

Former Member
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Ajay - there used to be an old web site SAPFAQ.COM. It was swallowed up by SEARCHSAP.COM.

In SAPFAQ, there were a number of mailing lists to which you could subscribe. the questions there were generally from professional types (I.E. the questions were clear and to the point) and got only a few responses. You could always tell beginner questions because they were answered a number of times immediately and then the thread would die.

There were no points available; questions were better thought out; there were fewer answers and those answers were also better thought out.

Rob

Former Member
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That is the thing.

Of 100 people,

- maybe 5 will help always - event at considerable effort on their end.

- Another 75 will help - if there is a acknolwedgement of their effort - in a 'thank you', in a reciprocal help, in form of recognition .. whatever.

- Another 20 may try to work it to their advantage - if they get something out of it they will do it - whether they helped or not is secondary.

These numbers are arbitrary but maybe the ratio is close enough to real.

A system will not survive if it had only the first 5 of 100 people.

A system will also not survive if it had the last 20 people running amock.

That is why we need positive reinforcers like points system to bring in the 75, and moderators, systems, rules - to rein in the last 20. This is what I think.

As an aside, it may be analogous to a person being controlled by 'id', 'ego' or 'superego' and thus falling in one of three broad groups.

Message was edited by:

Ajay Das

Former Member
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Ajay - with all due respect, I think you're making up your numbers. They are arbitrary and no where near 'real'. SAPFAQ worked very well with only the occasional "thank you".

But I'd say that if only the hardworking five contributed, the forum would do quite nicely.

Rob

Former Member
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I'm not so sure Rob.

Those five might be busy with their own projects. And what will happen to forums? DEAD SPACE?!

You know it happened before.

Former Member
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Yes, the numbers are arbitrary and may very well be totally off.

However, my conclusion differs. SAPFAQ would never have the same impact that SDN has been.

It and others were probably cleaner, more efficient and more focussed, but they never impacted / couldn't impact the large no of people that SDN has. And as you said, they eventually made way - because 5 (or 50) were not enough.

And, there is another basic question

- If a newbie is completely helped by an answer, even if he could get the same answer by searching enough, is that help any 'less' than an answer to a more complicated question that an expert user has asked? Are we judging 'how much help' has happened, or, 'what level of expertise' the Q&A is?

A community by the very meaning should be focussed on 'help' more than on the 'sophistication' of the help.

Former Member
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So the point system keeps the forums going??

SAPFAQ did not have the impact of SDN, but then SDN is actively supported by SAP.

Yes - it was not a good place for beginners, but that's fine with me. I enjoy trying to solve problems rather than cutting and pasting help files for someone who can't figure out how to use F1.

Rob

Former Member
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You make a good point.

However, does a forum exist to satisfy the urges of one set of people - who like challenges (which itself is a little ambiguous - afterall its SAP technology - not rocket-science), while it should look down upon another set (newbies - who may not have learned enough tricks to exhaust other options before posting a question on forums)?

Which is to say, shall SDN strive to create an exclusive area where there is a barrier? Why would it not be doomed like other sites then?

This conversation happens in many forms - essence being the same. People want to help - but at their level - wanting a creative satisfaction in return. Well - it is not as if people asking challenging questions have vanished from SDN. If it is harder to find such questions it is because SDN is there for other groups of participants as well, and it is tough luck if there are too many newbies there asking many simple questions. We can't take it for granted that SDN forums shall be tuned to our (more than others') preferences.

And, what is challenging for one may be mundane for another. What can be done about that - shall there be an elitist hierarchy of forums?

I am not refuting your point - just thinking aloud here.

And to what you ask - I do think points system has been a big factor in what SDN is today.

Former Member
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just one little note to your discussion:

It is not about anyone asking for an elite forum or about jdging the quality of questions per se but IMHO, someone not being able to use a search function available plainly is in the wrong industry and if someone doesn't pay the due respect to a community by searching first for an answer before posting trivial questions simply shows bad social behaviour.

Q: what is difference between function module and report? URGENT!

A: for function module go toSE37, for report go to SE38.

PLEASE AWARD FULL POINTS!!!

this sucks in every way I can think of.

my 2 cents. and I think thats not arrogant or elitism.

anton

ps: one addititional problem is the fact, that the enormous amount of noise renders the search function less and less useful which even leads people who search first to ask questions answered numerous times before.

former_member583013
Active Contributor
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However, does a forum exist to satisfy the urges of

one set of people - who like challenges (which itself

is a little ambiguous - afterall its SAP technology -

not rocket-science), while it should look down upon

another set (newbies - who may not have learned

enough tricks to exhaust other options before posting

a question on forums)?

Sure, not rocket-science...But you can still find a lot of nice challenges on ABAP programming -;) Also, I believe that Rob was talking about, that he answer in the forums not to gather points, but to provide the best possible solution, which can be hard sometimes...Newbies sometime doesn't understand simple answers...

Which is to say, shall SDN strive to create an

exclusive area where there is a barrier? Why would it

not be doomed like other sites then?

I don't think so....ABAP General is enough for both newbies, gurus or Übergeeks...Give SDN another forum, and we're going to need more moderators because newbies tend to ask questions in the wrong forums...and also tend to cross-post questions...

And, what is challenging for one may be mundane for

another. What can be done about that - shall there be

an elitist hierarchy of forums?

Of course not...I love challenges...But I also love to help newbies, even with the easier questions...It's to me, a way to remember that I done a few years back....

And to what you ask - I do think points system has

been a big factor in what SDN is today.

Maybe...But only a big factor in the grown of SDN...Sure, we have like 1,000,000 members....But also we have some of the best ABAP developers...Awesome blogs and amazing projects around...

Sorry Rob...I know that you must answer this....I just couldn't help myself -;)

Greetings,

Blag.

Former Member
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Anton,

No disagreements on your observation - none at all.

I would disagree that this is what all forums are about though.

And about the search on SDN, the less said the better.

cheers,

Former Member
0 Kudos

No, I wasn't going to answer. At this stage, it's just beating a dead horse.

Rob

Former Member
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Anton,

You've hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. I'm beginning to think that if there was some way to stop these sort of posts then the whole debate about points and gaming the system would fade somewhat.

I think the enforced search before posting a la OSS is a good way to go. And maybe restricting the number of open questions over a given time may also be helpful.

I think Ajay and Rob, whilst making very good points on both sides of a discussion, are focussing on the symptoms still and not necessarily the underlying cause of the problems. I kind of agree with both of them in some way; SAPFans.com became annoying because of the Tuly Idot club and some heavy handed moderating but at the same time it still remains very popular without a points system.

Gareth.

suresh_datti
Active Contributor
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in other words..

"Prevention is better than cure!"

~Suresh

Former Member
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Lol.

Exactly

former_member583013
Active Contributor
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Ajay:

Thanks for your comments -:) I can assure you that both the SDN Team and the group of moderators are working to improve the forums, the blogs and the points system. It might be not flawless but is still good.

Main problem is the people...Point Hunters...Cross Posters...People that doesn't assign points...We as a Community must do our little grain of sand to help, so I thank you again for your valuable comments -;)

Greetings,

Blag.

stephenjohannes
Active Contributor
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Ajay,

Two or three years ago, the points system was needed in order to get people to contribute to SDN and really use the forums. There was some reward needed to make people want to contribute. As the number of users has reached critical mass, the need for a lure to draw people in is unnecessary.

If you look at the evolution of frequent flier programs, the airlines are now in the phase where they are devaluing the miles to offset so many rewarded. Likewise I think if any reform happens with SDN on the point system, and it is kept then the values of points awarded should be immediately cut to something lower.

My recommendation:

2 points for a solved problem

1 point for any type of helpful answer.

The weblog/wiki/document points can remain the same as there is not much abuse in that area, and people still contribute excellent content.

You might still have gaming the system at this level but it is going to take 10x the number of posts just to equal the effect of one post. This would also steer people to contribute more to the WIKI, and other areas to get points.

Take care,

Stephen

che_eky
Active Contributor
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I have a dream that one day this SDN network will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creation:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all SDN user Ids are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the SDN forums, the sons of former SDN members and the sons of former SDN user Id owners will be able to sit down together at the table of TechEd.

I have a dream that one day even the ABAP forum, a forum sweltering with the heat of points hunters, sweltering with the heat of primitive, rudimentary and unsophisticated questions, will be transformed into an oasis of technically challenging questions and justice for correct answers.

I have a dream that all SDN members will one day live in a SDN network where they will not be judged by their number of points but by the content of their posts.

I have a dream today!

Che

Former Member
0 Kudos

Very Good Che,

I love that ABBA song too.

che_eky
Active Contributor
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> I love that ABBA song too.

Your showing your age Chester, don't remember ABBA myself but my grandad often shares a tune.

Former Member
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... and I have a dream that someone in the ABAP forum will use the F1 key before posting.

Former Member
0 Kudos

Amen brother.

ramki_maley
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

I stumbled onto this

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hello,

Check also this one :

<a href="http://www.sapfans.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=295062">How to earn points in SDN</a>

!!!!!!

former_member583013
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Hi Ramki:

Thanks -:) I have delete all "Please reward" from that post...And please don't pay attetion to SapFans threads....They're just jealuos of SDN -;)

Greetings,

Blag.

Former Member
0 Kudos

but I liked this remark on SAPFANS:

<i>it's people who buy IDES on a DVD on a flea market and then install it home to learn and then, obviously, they need support. This is the real problem</i>

There's some truth in that.

anton

Former Member
0 Kudos

The sapfans post is tongue in cheek. As a relative noobie to the forum coming from other SAP subject fora, it does appear to me that while a good number of posters do so for altruistic reasons, many post irrelevant info or cut & paste & demand points for doing so.

From what I have seen in the Security forum, it appears that the most knowledgeable post without demanding recompense, but those seeking points solely refer to sap help or various links. I wouldn't see it being a great loss to lose the input from these types of posters & encouraging people to use the search or the wealth of knowledge easily accessible to people involved in SAP.

former_member110461
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

I often post links to stuff in help.sap.com... but normally because it is a case of if you had bothered to look on there then this is what you would of found... but I know what you mean with people who just point directly at help.sap.com rather than the link to the detailed answer.

In regards to the points, we almost need newbie question forums (what is SAP, what is a portal etc) which people can post in.... but then I guess that people will still post in the wrong forum.

Paul

Former Member
0 Kudos

Paul, sorry - I didn't mean to insinuate that pointing to help or oss is a bad thing - that would be just a tad hypocritical! It's those that link to often irrelevant info & ask for points for doing the job badly

Former Member
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Well, why not create Beginners Forums beside Expert Forums ?

Olivier

Former Member
0 Kudos

It wouldn't work. We get people posting in the Coffee Corner forum asking for help with authorisations, or MM processes or whatever.

As with any Forum on t'internet we will always have a lot of lazy users who can't be bothered to search, to read codes of conduct or best practice guides, etc... Besides, I think a beginners forum would open the floodgates for even more points abuse and would increase the workload on the moderators.

As with many others, I hate people who reply and ask for reward points but found a post a few minutes ago that ended with "Reward points to helpful answer. It Motivates us to Help Others." Is that really how people see the points system, as a motivation to help?

Thanks,

Gareth.

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hello,

I think the only way to save the SDN forums is to enforce the rules STRICTLY.

Si It's a huge job for moderators and a lot of moderators are needed.

The only way, in my opinion, is for SAP to hire enough professional moderators.

This is not a traditional hobby forum on Internet which can be moderated by good will moderators on their free time.

The current situation proves it.

This a forum hosted by the second company in the software industry which makes huge profits from the money our companies pay to use the SAP products.

If SAP wants SDN forums to continue, thay have to invest massively in human ressources for SDN forums.

Otherwise the forums can change their name to "Please work for me because I'm too lazy to find basic information by myself forums".

This would be a big loss to the community...

[Rant mode off]

I'm ready to get the flames !

Olivier

Former Member
0 Kudos

Hi Olivier,

I couldn't agree more with you.

Gareth.

Rudi_Wiesmayr
Active Participant
0 Kudos

No flames, Olivier!!! I fully agree with you.

SAP founded SDN and they somehow lost control. They cannot just provide tools, attract thousands of users just to have them and then let it descend into chaos.

I often compare SDN and Wikipedia. WP has no points system, therefore does not attract those players. And vandals are hunted by thousands of admins; and this seems to work very good (limited scope to my 200 articles I watch in german WP) But WP is non profit...

Running SDN needs more.

Kind regards, Rudi

marilyn_pratt
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Sounds like just the kind of conversation to hold with "meet the VP" (upper management) of our network at<a href="https://wiki.sdn.sap.com/wiki/display/Community/CommunityDayLasVegasOctober+1st">Community Day</a>...now if any of you folks are attending Teched.........

I'll do my best to forward but this kind of conversation is useful to have in the audience of resource decision makers....

eddy_declercq
Active Contributor
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Hi,

Grumpy suggested things in the begiining of the year at

/people/eddy.declercq/blog/2007/01/12/from-the-grumpy-old-man-smooth-moderator

On of the things he mentioned was the fact that there wasn't a decent list of moderators. There is one now (https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/wiki?path=/display/community/forum+moderators&) but far from complete and there is no way to contact them

Eddy

former_member583013
Active Contributor
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Eddy:

Anyone can contact me -:) I think that the moderator job has been improved...We're now following some guidelines and gladly the noise is being down...I always delete all the "award if useful" or "I will assign points" in the forum that I moderate...I have seen less of those in last couple of days...Of course we are far from perfection, but at least we are doing our best job -:)

Greetings,

Blag.

eddy_declercq
Active Contributor
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Blag,

I think the idea of Olievier an Grumpy was to have 100% full time moderators.

Eddy

Former Member
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Alvaro,

My point is not at all to tell that current moderators do their job badly.

I thank them to do the best they can but I think that the volume of message is just too huge to be handled by part time volontary moderators.

I'm sure, that like me, you have plenty of real work outside SDN forums.

So moderating SDN forums could become a real full time job for several people.

As Marylin said it's a decision to be taken by decision makers.

But do they know the situation on SDN ?

And if they do, do they care about it ?

They need to read the Coffe Corner, they would know what actual consumers think really !

Regards,

Olivier

Former Member
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Blag - unfortunately, you and the other moderators can only delete the ones you see. This means that most in some parts of the world are deleted, but in other areas, they don't.

So more moderators is part of the answer.

Since SAP Support points directly to SDN, you'd think that it would be in SAP's interest to ensure that users can use it quickly and easily.

Rob

former_member583013
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

Rob...Well...Your right...I would love to able to Moderate all forums in SDN...But I can't for some obviuos reasons -:)

Sure, more Moderators are needed...The problem is that is really a time consuming job...I tried to be log into SDN most of the time, but still so many threads are posted everyday...

I have read that someone said that the SDN should hire some full time Moderators...I'm not sure about that...As we are a Community, we are here to help...Maybe Mark, Craig, Gali or Marilyn can talk about that possibility....

So, more moderators should be added...But who's willing to take this hard job?

Greetings,

Blag.

Former Member
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This topic came up in my "Rant about standard... blah blah blah" thread recently.

I think everyone agrees that more moderation is needed - the current moderation is brilliant but there simply isn't enough time in the day for everything to be moderated. As I said in that thread, I'd offer to help out but as Blag has said, there is only so much you can do each day whilst also performing your full time job.

Full time moderators... Can you imagine sitting staring at SDN all day deleting/locking/editing the rubbish threads we see?! I reckon suicide rates would go up for those concerned!

My suggestion is to try to deal with the cause and not just the symptoms. More moderation would be great and would help to clear up the forums and I'm sure lots of others like myself would volunteer to help out but it isn't necessarily the most efficient use of everyone's time.

There have been a lot of postings in a few threads here lately about various ways of changing/improving/removing the points system and also changing how people are allowed to post to the forums, such as forcing them to search first like OSS does.

I think there needs to be a coordinated look at the forums from all parties concerned with the aim of improving usability for everyone because as you have said Blag, its all about being a community and helping one another. There have been a large number of brilliant suggestions here - the hard part will be bringing them to the attention of those who make the decisions.

Maybe as Marilyn has said a few times someone needs to go and make all these points on the community day before TechEd (I'm not getting into Munich until the evening unfortunately so won't be able to otherwise I would - I love to moan

Gareth.

Former Member
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Alvaro,

As you say: it's a hard job. So it's not a hobby.

As we say in french : "Every work deserves salary."

That's the limit of volontary help. You get what you're paying for because the volontary moderators need to work for their real job to get their salaries.

In the current state of the forums, I would not want to be volonatry moderator.

I would be fed up very quickly to say the same thing hundreds of time per day !

I would not be zen enough to stay calm and polite with points hunters !

Regards,

Olivier

former_member583013
Active Contributor
0 Kudos

> As you say: it's a hard job. So it's not a hobby.

> As we say in french : "Every work deserves salary."

> That's the limit of volontary help. You get what

> you're paying for because the volontary moderators

> need to work for their real job to get their

> salaries.

Sure...But for me -:) SDN gifts are enough payment -:) I got 4 T-Shirts for my contributions...So I can't complain -;)

> In the current state of the forums, I would not want

> to be volonatry moderator.

> I would be fed up very quickly to say the same thing

> hundreds of time per day !

> I would not be zen enough to stay calm and polite

> with points hunters !

That's a good points...I'm kinda tired of modify posts...But...As I love my full time job...I love my Moderator job... -:)

Greetings,

Blag.

Former Member
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Holy dimwits, Batman! More wrong answers than right.

It's one thing not knowing - I'd say the command's counter intuitive and I'd expect it to return nothing, if I didn't know otherwise - but I really have no time for people who guess.

There's a proverb - Better remain silent and be thought a fool, than open your mouth and prove you're one.

dhorions
Contributor
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Ajay, I couldn't agree more.

But the fact remains that the points system could be improved, so that people who genuinly want to help don't have to weed through al the posts looking for the 'real'-questions. It used to be a minuscule minority that was abusing the system, but it is growing.

Former Member
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Ajay -- I strongly support your position. It's also my own point of view.

Anton -- All these facts you are pointing out -- are all secondary to SDN success (with it's points system). And something must be done with it. If you kill the points system, there will be nothing to talk about, like in SAP Community (with its imperfect points system).

IMPROVE, NOT KILL!

Former Member
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ajay,

with all respect I think your closing your eyes to not see the obvious.

Take any (recent) given day in the ABAP or BI forums and analyze it.

- Count the number of threads.

- Count the number of genuine questions (questions which cannot be answered by a most trivial search)

- Count the number of genuine answers

- Draw rational conclusion

Regarding the great contributors you mentionend, I would say none of them - NONE - is known for the number of points he acquired but for their known quality of contributions and their shown empathy and love for the subject as well as their dedication to spread their knowledge. I think, each of those mentionend would also have acted similarly without the points system in place.

on the other hand a number (and of course I don't say all) of today's top contributors are known by their score only.

<i>some people have a good name here others have a good score.</i>

my 2 cents,

anton

suresh_datti
Active Contributor
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> <i>some people have a good name here others have a

> good score.</i>

Pl check this <a href="/people/community.user/blog/2007/08/30/community-day-and-why-does-bangalore-not-want-one">Blog</a> & draw your own conclusions.

~Suresh

Former Member
0 Kudos

As I understand it, the point system is not just to reward those who give good answers, it's also supposed to be used as a guide by people searching the forums far answers before posting. If correct or good answers are not marked, it makes it more difficult for those who actually search to find what they are looking for.

Rob