For the sake of my sanity, please remove points from Coffee Corner!

[Former Member]

This is beyond a joke.  The utter tripe being posted, commented and liked on here (most of which is cut and pasted from elsewhere on t'internet) is horrendous at the moment.

Pointless stories and anecdotes copied from Facebook and other inane sources get more comments, likes and ultimately points than "genuine" interesting content.

Please don't let SCN be watered down with Facebook style rubbish - lets get rid of the points in here and get it back to the fun, easy going place that Coffee Corner was originally set out to be.

Gareth.

[kakshat · Accepted solution]

I thought twice before liking your post but I completely agree.

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

Ha!

[Jelena_Perfiljeva]

Just checked out the "most liked content" - OMG... Where are the Julius's mongoose stories and Funniest names in the community? A 'Dislike' button would be oh so handy right now...

I can only suggest that "the forces of good" start our own "point ring" and send the "point market" into stagflation eventually causing it to collapse. Then we can start from scratch with the new point currency.

[Steffi_Warnecke]

Julius's mongoose stories

What, what, what?! Please point me to it and ... well, I already said the evil P-word.

[Jelena_Perfiljeva]

Here it comes: The Coffee Corner Classic.

[Steffi_Warnecke]

Thank you! After thinking about my request for a moment I tried it with the search. How great is that?!

[Former Member]

Sorry, I had to like your post. That set you back 2 poings. You too Jelena.

Actually I am "liking" a lot of wikis and other noisy content this evening as well, and the results should show up in the SCN Support area as the fiasco unfolds.

On behalf of the SCN community I would also like to thank Jason Lax. Not sure what the message was which you sent back Jason, but it is wonderful. Exactly what we want.. 

Cheers,

Julius

[Steffi_Warnecke]

Sorry, I had to like your post. 

Nooooooo! Whyyyyyyyy!!!

But thank you for following up on the mongoose, although I have to say the story's end was a bit of a... well... anticlimax. ^^ But the thread was absolutly worth reading!

[Former Member]

Damn. Will have to go back to the stincky security forum now again as well, as it seems that SAP fixed the points problem in the meanwhile too... (but only until midnight )

Oh well. It was a wonderful Monday for me, even if much too short  ;-(

Cheers,

Julius

[amit_khare]

I never realized up till today that google will return url's with SCAN word in it if I put SCN in search box

[mike_howles4]

Wait what?  I can get some free likes here?  Cool. 

[Former Member]

I have observed a new scenario yesterday when I have created a new Avatar for my profile, SCN has given me 5 points. I was surprised by observing this.

I have procrastinated my decision to buy a camera in the past, but now I want to take this opportunity......... 

Regards,

Srikanth Naidu. A

[ThomasZloch]

Congratulations, you accidentally completed the "Ready (Set Go)!" mission. Works only once though.

Thomas

[former_member181931]

Hi everyone,

TechEd Las Vegas is over and I can finally take the time to come back to SCN and read interesting conversations, including this long thread

First of all, please read this thread where Jeanne Carboni announces that on November 17 blogs and documents will be turned off in the Coffee Corner.

Now, I'd like to respond to a couple of people whose comments resonated with me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far I've never talked about a "reputation system". What we have in SCN is a reputation program, not a reputation system. And yes, it is not perfect but I'm constantly striving to improve it. The system we are using is purely based on missions, points and badges, and not as robust as a reputation system. If you think about what stackoverflow is doing, and I admire them, this is the type of thing I would like to see Jive implement in the future. Unfortunately it takes a lot of efforts and time to convince them. They like the idea, but they are not moving as fact as I'd like them to, and now we have Bunchball in the picture, i.e. additional complexity.

For those interested in reputation systems, I recommend the book Building Web Reputation Systems. I read it in 2010 and sadly I am still far from what is described in the book. Actually, I should read it again since so much has changed.

wrote something spot on about reputation systems:

As another thought...  I'm on a robotics board.  There, the reputation of the person liking your stuff determines how many reputation points you get...  EG. lots of likes from people without reputation are meaningless…

I see this as the best route for us because:

- We can't remove the gamification system (badges, with or without points) as long as it is a validated incentive for some members who are providing good quality content. People have reported that onboarding missions help them and encourage them, we cannot ignore this feedback.

- Also, I believe that if we remove points or are stricter with how many points/badges we give for what, the noise makers will just work harder to get more enablers in the ranks 😞

One solution, I think is what Neal describes: give weight to people who deserve this weight. Mentors, Moderators, etc.

And on a side note Julius,

"Unfortunately not much happens: in some cases fluffy answers at most are offered and in others it gets worse. The annual surveys offer points to get positive feedback…"

I beg to disagree. We are offering points and a badge for completing the survey because we want more people to provide feedback. We even want negative feedback! Maybe I should give twice the amount of points to those providing this negative, constructive feedback?

Mechanism for points and badges is the same, and at the moment you can't turn it off in the coffee corner.

And so far, no we haven't thought about creating badges just for the coffee corner…

wrote

"I've always chosen not to be part of that discussion because people like Laure Cetin work full time on trying to make that work and it will always be imperfect."

Don't you think you can bring something to the discussion? Maybe you could suggest improvements that haven't been brought forward yet?

I saw an interesting suggestion in this thread to generate a list of every user who has more than, say, 20% of their points from the Coffee Corner and investigate a little more closely?

I would like to look into this once the Coffee Corner is closed to documents and blogs, and then investigate this the same way he investigates cases of point cheating in other SCN areas (spaces). We will try to clean up things a little bit.

And then, to everyone: What the heck is this Points PayPal thing??? Please tell me it's not what I think it is...

Best,

Laure

[Former Member]

Laure Cetin said "I see this as the best route for us because:"

I tell you, if someone in the top 10/20/100 on ABAP Development (I'm a BAP'er so I'm going to look to my fellow geeks for approval) gives something that I wrote a like, I'd rather have that then almost any points you want to pick any day. 

Neal

I just wish there was some way to tell who the "top 100" were easily...

[Former Member]

Laure you're probably right and over the last few weeks, I have invested a bit more time in the SCN points system in general. Here's my feedback.

- I actually quite like the badges system. It's fun and entertaining to get to the first levels. Like any system of its kind, it can be gamed, but that doesn't seem to be ruining SCN too badly.

- On the second levels: "I'm in a ...mood" I think there is too much focus on volume and not enough on quality. You can easily get 5 likes in a single blog, for instance. I think this promotes quantity rather than quality. Obviously the "I'm in a helping mood" doesn't suffer from that. If you substantially increased the number of likes, it would focus people on quality content, and 4 blogs is a lot just to get to level 2 IMHO>

- Again, I really like the Data Geek Challenge. It's a bit silly and a bit fun and it encourages people to use Lumira. But I would like to see a bit more effort required for the higher levels, all you have to do is write a blog.

- More things like the DG Challenge would be good. For instance, we wanted to do the HANA Distinguished Engineer badges with over a year ago. Not sure what happened to that project but it is easily renewed.

- As someone who got all the easy badges, progressing feels quite hard now and I'm sure it will only become harder once I have gotten the "I'm in a .... mood" badges. The easiest way to progress is to write a ton of bad content.

I looked through the people who have progressed to the upper ranks and this looks to be causing bad behavior. There are individuals like who are a one-person epidemic of good content, and there are others who are creating swathes of blogs and documents that only get a few views.

One dude even created a 14-part document and I'm sure this is to get the "Tutor" badge. One correlation I saw was that most of these individuals have a low overall reputation - Silver or Gold. Maybe you should have to be Platinum or Topaz before certain missions become available, especially those that require a quantity of good content.

For example a good document should get say 5 5* likes on average. That's say 40 points including the points for the document. 20 documents is at least 800 points and allowing people with Silver reputation to get "Tutor" status is basically saying "yes, it's OK to write a ton of bad content"

Just my thoughts and rambles. Hope it helps.

John

[Former Member]

>>For example a good document should get say 5 5* likes on average.

There is a dude who gets a 5-star rating and 2 likes within 5 minutes of posting content, no matter how badly formatted it is.

People have fake accounts and real friends to give ratings.

Quality of content, specifically for badges should be decided by Mods instead of others.

[Steffi_Warnecke]

I don't think that should be a job for the mods. They have enough on their plate as it is. ^^

Sure, there are point gamers out there. But that doesn't mean you should put ratings and likes under the control of a small group. These tools are supposed to show the communitys opinion. As long as enough people show their opinion (good AND bad) of content they read, it should get better IMO.

[Former Member]

>>As long as enough people show their opinion

I think enough people do not show their opinion on below average content.

[Steffi_Warnecke]

Yep, I think that is the main problem. It got a bit better in the last weeks, at least in the Coffee Corner. ^^ I guess people rather give positive feedback than negative, so they refrain from giving low ratings and just don't do anything at all of they stumble over bad content.

I have to say, I was one of those people and started rather recently with the negative feedback. Being sick and tired of something motivates a lot. Also I'm using the "Report Abuse" button quite a lot now. ^^

[Former Member]

You are welcome to be a mod and to do this 🙂

The mods are there though to weed out the fakers. Don't they do a good job of this?

[Former Member]

That's a cool idea for a badge "Abuse Reporter". 5 points for each piece of abuse removed, that was reported. could have some fun here!

[JL23]

this means I could have made 2760 points since June 2nd.

This will just turn the approach of the fake users, today the fake users rate and like, then the fake users create fake content and the real user clicks abuse.

Rewards should be given for quality content, not for volume and noise.

[Former Member]

Manish,

<<<I think enough people do not show their opinion on below average content.>>>

So maybe the answer should be that content is not judged as qualifying until it has say 20 accounts rating it?

Neal

[Former Member]

Says the guy who gamed his way to 74k points 😉

Just kidding.

I don't have the solution, but creating a system where the people who are gaming it is obvious, and docking their points, seems to be advantageous?

John

[Former Member]

>>could have made 2760 points

My 2 cents errr points to your comment

>>fake users create fake content

This is why Julius B is so against the points system.

I am using >> instead of Jive supported "Quote Previous Message" button because in communications tab, reply box does not have that button. Advanced Editing link is also missing.

[Former Member]

I feel Moderators and Mentors are more special than Topic Leaders.

Most of their work does not earn points, so I like(pun unintended) to read every content they like/rate.

>>content is not judged as qualifying until..

I am not suggesting any answer to it as it is not really a question.

It sort of reminds me of why the answer to life the universe and everything is 42.

[former_member186498]

Jürgen L wrote:
This will just turn the approach of the fake users, today the fake users rate and like, then the fake users create fake content and the real user clicks abuse. 

maybe this is a point that could be improved, controlling devices on access checking if the device is already registered by another user (storing the data relating to the devices used by subscribers) and forcing users already present with another user to choose between one of these.

[Colleen]

I too have started using the Report Abuse Button

Maybe if gamification is appreciated by most they create a new badge category for "Supporting the Community" - If you report abuse and it's accepted by a moderator you get the badge. Add some extra layers to it (10+ accepted reports or reporting across multiple spaces, etc). It would encourage those out there to press the button and start contributing to cleaning up SCN. More so, we get more community members sending the message that we won't tolerate gamers and poor content.

Participating in improving the community could then become another way to identify new Moderators as well.

I wonder if you can report abuse of a user and not just their comment. So if you notice a pattern on their action their account activities can be reviewed.

Downside, would then be more work on moderators to investigate and risk of perceived targetting of members.

[JL23]

Abuse of a user is not possible, but just click abuse on his/her content and mention it in the text field.

[Colleen]

thanks - that's what I'm doing from now on if I see a pattern.

[former_member181931]

Hi

Great feedback, thank you for taking the time.

These are really good suggestions, some of them we've already thought of, some not. I will also relay the feedback to the Data Geek Challenge team.

I haven't heard from David Hull for a while, we did talk about HANA distinguished engineers missions but were restricted by lack of integration and not enough configuration tools. Next year should be better, we're working on it.

and I are meeting next week to look at the overall gamification design on SCN and we will have certain adjustments in mind.

FYI everyone, currently we can't track abuse reports and use them for missions. Wish we could, we'll be working on that as well.

Best,

Laure

[Former Member]

So, I'm guessing that the notice that just came out is where we loose all of the Coffee points?

Just steeling myself for a significant drop in points...

Despite that, it's the right thing to do.

Neal

[JasonLax]

You will keep your points. Eventually the plan is to make the Coffee Corner a points free zone SCN members will not loose any points they've earned thus far, even if their blog posts have been moved to their personal blog.

[Former Member]

Personally, I think that is the wrong thing to do and that any points gained in the CC recently should be lost, however I'm guessing that will just create more noise than it is worth!

Gareth.

[Former Member]

@http://scn.sap.com/people/laure.cetin

Neal Wilhite wrote something spot on about reputation systems:

As another thought...  I'm on a robotics board.  There, the reputation of the person liking your stuff determines how many reputation points you get...  EG. lots of likes from people without reputation are meaningless…

Back to this thought.

So for a like, I'd take the points for the last year of the liker.  Divide by 300 and round down.  That's how many points the liked would get added to their reputation.  Also, mods would get 1000 points added before the calculation.

Divide by 60 for helpful, but with a minimum of 1.  Divide by 30 for Correct but with a minimum of 5.

It would be hard to build up points but boy, when you get them, it really would mean something!

But to really make it meaningful, you'd have to go back and recalculate the points from some point far back in time.

Neal

[BenedictV]

let me start the 'noise'. I too think that retention of points does not sound a good idea and I think it undermines the whole basis of making the coffee corner blog/doc free.

[marilyn_pratt]

lots of likes from people without reputation are meaningless…

That really is a great observation. Not all likes are created equal 🙂

[JL23]

Neil would lose 21% of his points. others their Thought leader badge, some are their self-control

All plagiarized content is removed along with its points (please do not put any word on a scale).

Blogs and documents cannot be launched anymore.

Isn't this a great achievement?

If you bumped your car, then you cant male it undone if go into reverse.

I guess it is technically a hard job to remove all points , and then the next question about removing badges may come up too.

Let's be generously and look forward

[Former Member]

Loosing 21% would be a small price to pay for the points to mean more.  But I understand that reality doesn't give way to my impractical ideas.  I'm hopeful that we will still be better served.

Neal

[Steffi_Warnecke]

I'm even at 26 percent and I would have given them up (I kind of expected that with the points-free-thingy here). ^^

But I understand what Jürgen means. So well... let's be happy with what we get.

[Lukas_Weigelt]

We have already received an abuse report for this message. Thank you.

We have already received an abuse report for this message. Thank you.

We have already received an abuse report for this message. Thank you.

We have already received an abuse report for this message. Thank you.

sigh...

[rahul_mahajan]

I too feel that we should have points free coffee corner space.

Thanks for talking loud on it and i hope soon we will see the results based on all above comments.

Cheers!!!

Rahul

[Former Member]

I have for some time now been tempted to post some poems about and photos of our cats here. Also their CV's and possibly a virtual under cover dating club for cats in the Coffee Corner so that there is less noise in the neighbourhood?

But the hamsters are already 5 years old so maybe they should be given preference.

I dont want to just mindlessly blog about our cats or hamsters (nee, who would do that...) , so if I get enough "likes" then I will BIF our veteran cat "Heidi" forward to test the waters of the Coffee Corner.

Please do the needful only if you can revert back with interest for something which has nothing to do with dogs which hate cats, or your dogs are well trained and disciplined (like my cats are) then it is OK.

ps: I will also not pimp all my collegues to "like" and post "you are such a wonderful person / cat / hamster" comments to Heidi's maiden voyage into the internet.... Please also be respectful to Heidi!

Cheers,

Julius

[BenedictV]

No one would call it a Heidi'ous post even if you begged 'Like Me'...'Like Me'...'Like Me'...because this is the coffee corner

[Former Member]

Hoping this gets me some points from Julius.

[Lukas_Weigelt]

Do it Julius, cats are awesome! That'll help coping with the poem-BS, even if it will surely create some serious doubt for some dogs!

[Former Member]

A perfect example of why points shouldn't mean prizes in the Coffee Corner - http://scn.sap.com/community/coffee-corner/blog/2013/10/21/monday

It's really #NotABlog, and probably would have been posted as a discussion, if at all, before points came to the space.

The other symptom of all of this "noise" is how it also pollutes the @SCNBlogs twitter stream, where more #NotABlog content is now showing up in the great points rush.

[Former Member]

And another http://scn.sap.com/community/coffee-corner/blog/2013/10/20/life-of-the-it-professionals

Not sure a collection of images even constitutes a blog does it?

[Lukas_Weigelt]

I keep reporting these "blogs" for points-gaming but it doesn't help. Mods seem to like copy-pasta from the failblog and from the internet's cesspool...

[BenedictV]

Totally agree. Instead of strict guidelines for 'what is not' a blog or valid content, I think there should be strict guidelines for 'what is' valid content.

[Former Member]

Don't forget, if enough people report abuse on a posting, it is automatically hidden (I think it is 5 reports to trigger this) so we could almost create a counter-culture to the point gamers by all reporting abuse and at least getting it hidden!

[Former Member]

What would that group be called?

Whiplash ring vs point ring??

[Former Member]

So many jokes, so little time...

I think like many others, it is time to give up on until the points are removed.

[Steffi_Warnecke]

Whiplash ring vs point ring??

"If you like it, you should've put a ring on it" got a whole new meaning for me just now.

[BenedictV]

I dont think hiding a post will help. The post should be locked and points removed but be visible., with a message from the moderator in bold red letters "The following post is locked because it contains plagiarsed content" or "Point Gamer" etc. This would discourage other from doing the same thing.

[former_member185167]

Bring back Guestification!

It was swift, merciless, painful.

SCN wanted Gamification and now they're being gamed.

[gleo_SRAM]

Hi everyone,

One of the primary issues with this debate is about folk trawling for points.  Why not just ignore it if it bothers us that much.  "Life's hurdles can be great opportunities when we rise above them (Pazt).

So what if people are liking each others posts to get points or throwing in answers and not really thinking about it, or asking for points for spending time on an issue! You bet it can be an irratation.....They will always be there, they will come and go, their knowledge is not necessarily increasing if they have hundreds of points nor perhaps do they add a lot of value (they do sometimes I would acknowledge that).

So selectively read what adds value to you and ignore the rest.

With regards

Gill

[Steffi_Warnecke]

Hello Gill,

because it is meant to be a reputation system. If someone has a lot of points that should mean he earned them by providing good content, that is helpful. Not content that is provided to gain points to fake a good reputation.

If you ignore it, that why have a reputation system at all? It's useless in that case, if the points accumulated don't mean a thing.

I had explained my view of it so nicely here:

I like the CC, but I don't like that it seems to become a pond to fish for easy points to climb the ranks and watering the points system down by this, because the involved people forget that it's not about the amount of points but about the worth of them (so for what you got them, meaning good content). It should be a sign of quality, but becomes now pure quantity.

[Former Member]

I have to agree about reputation meaning more that some random DS liked what you said.  So what if you had to come up with 5 or 10 people liking your single post for the like points to add to your reputation.  And what if the "helped" and "correct" Also required a certain number of likes to add to your reputation.  Perhaps then reputation starts meaning something.

As another thought...  I'm on a robotics board.  There, the reputation of the person liking your stuff determines how many reputation points you get...  EG. lots of likes from people without reputation are meaningless...

Neal

[Former Member]

What you are asking is that coffee corner be removed.  I'd disagree!

Neal

[Former Member]

I'm really glad my short rant has triggered all of this discussion (even if lots of it is tongue-in-cheek )

Interestingly, the people "guilty" (for want of a better word) of posting the quality-challenged blogs aren't too active on this discussion...  Guess I can draw my own conclusions from that.

[gleo_SRAM]

Have you considered using in

[marilyn_pratt]

Intimidated?  That might be my conclusion.  But I must say that reading through all of this has made me laugh very very hard in spite of my trying to control my facial muscles and be well-behaved.  Good mean fun, I hate to admit.

[Former Member]

Hi Marylin,

So what is going to be actively done about the complaints now, which we can also follow up on?

For me there are three "take home" topics open:

• Eliminate points from Coffee Corner  completely. (it was an error to let it in here, but on the other hand the SCN team get some feedback which folks dont give in the "real" areas - they just think WFT..)
• Provide an "opt out" badge for those who dont want user based noise but rather content information value. Completely points neutral contributions.
• The "paypal" coding to buy points needs to be clarified. How did that get in there and what is planned" for buying points (I will immediately sell all of mine and donate the proceeds to a good cause, except there is no "selling app" for points...!?? Did you see that?

I also have a 4th topic, but it might be a minority group interest... (warning: it can be isolated!) --> Get rid of the points system in the Security Areas as a pilot project? A POC (Proof of Concept).

You remember that discussion, dont you? I will try to find the link to it again but perhaps you have a ticket open for it which is easier to find than amongst the many rants and poems here. Perhaps it also got lost in the migration...

Cheers,

Julius

[ThomasZloch]

I and Google remember this one here: Active Contributor Award | SCN

[Former Member]

Thank you Thomas! 

What a wonderful "points for 1 show" we put up with back then, in the hope of things becoming better...

Reading that and comparing it to the current "bug a tree" type answers I really want the "opt out" badge, or I will opt out completely.

It is simply too silly with the idiodic points system motivation.

Cheers,

Julius

[ThomasZloch]

I'm trying to remain positive about gamification impact in general, but the way people are obviously eyeing rankings, getting nervous when a few points are missing from their totals, becoming creative (in a negative sense) while trying to earn more, this makes me feel a bit weary.

In any case, it would be great to be able to compare behaviour in a points-free pilot, for me it would be very interesting to see this also in ABAP Development. Ratings and Likes can remain for highlighting valuable content, also some badges (why not highlight when somebody is giving many correct replies), just deactivate points and rankings.

Not going to happen, I guess.

Thomas

[Steffi_Warnecke]

the way people are obviously eyeing rankings

But I love that I'm silver now!

[Former Member]

Only another 447 points until gold

[Steffi_Warnecke]

Don't remind me. I'm not a big fan of gold. So it's the far, far away Platinium, that's the next goal. Or maybe I slow down and opt for the "no more points for me, please"-badge, too. But only, if I get a cool, shiny icon with that, too! I don't want to be blank. Or if I can keep the nice silver.

[Former Member]

Keep posting good stuff and you'll get there. These badges aren't meant to be easy. Unless you're a poet, I guess...

Given the size of the gap between platinum and the gems, I'd suggest aiming to stop at platinum. I'm never going to make topaz!

Not that points matter, obviously

Steve.

[Steffi_Warnecke]

Ah come one, Steve. Give it some years (and years) and we'll be gems too! *g* I'll need to go at least to emerald. The green goes better with my hair. *flip* Also topaz looks so golden again.

My proudest moment right now is, that I'm on the IdM leaderboard! That's the proof, that more people need to post there, if a newbie like me can get on that. I'll take a screenshot, before I'm kicked off of it again.

[Former Member]

Emerald? I'll be retired before I get that far!

Leaderboards are good, not least because over in the "real" spaces points are more meaningful. You've obviously been posting good stuff over there. Keep that up and you'll be emerald in no time. Who knows, maybe diamond isn't out of reach...

Steve.

[Steffi_Warnecke]

Yeah, diamond! Everyone needs goals. 😄 And why stop there? Catching Jürgen! Now there is an achievement. *gg*

[marilyn_pratt]

The direction is this:

1) As soon as the ability to disallow points for a specific space is implemented we will make Coffee Corner a "points free" zone.  EDT according to is now end of Q4 as reported today in our team meeting

2) For the time being we will continue to allow the posting of blogs and documents in CC as removing the ability would delete all the previously created content.

Might I suggest that if there continue to be concerns around the motivation for posting in CC that content that is inappropriate is flagged as abuse.  That way, it can at least be hidden and no point allocation will accrue for it until the points are entirely eliminated here.

Julius, as to your Security points free space request, perhaps we can revisit when we do get the opportunity to make space-specific elimination of points possible.

In the meanwhile reread your 2010 request: http://scn.sap.com/message/9846340#9846340 and of course the lively discussion we had here: http://scn.sap.com/message/9821072

Wish I could reconstruct the response that "disappeared" in migration.  Maybe I'll find something similar on Slashdot.

[Former Member]

Thank you Marylin!

I will follow up in Q4 then.

Of course you dont have to do any of this nor the "opt out" badge if you dont wont to or it cannot be done. You just have to live with the rants and consequences (no rants)...

Cheers, Julius

[Jelena_Perfiljeva]

I'm actually very much liking Julius's idea about selling and buying points (for charity, of course). Everyone could buy themselves an "Unobtanium" level to brag (or whatever is the reason people chase the points here). And the rest of us can move on "point-poor".

[Steffi_Warnecke]

2) For the time being we will continue to allow the posting of blogs and documents in CC as removing the ability would delete all the previously created content.

Deleted! I didn't know that would happen if the content isn't allowed here anymore. I thought it would just be hidden. Now that would really be a shame for some stuff, so I guess the suggested solution is the best.

And maybe some more people will follow Jürgens idea of

Thank you for the update, Marilyn!

@Jelena: Unobtanium! Another thing learned. I was about to congratulate you for this cool word-creation, but googled first. But that would be a great level for the opt-out-bunch! Because you can't optain that level through the points and the gamification. ^^

[Former Member]

Actually it is not my idea or something I want at all. That there is a Paypal option to buy points shocked me - I am still investigating it further.

The ability to buy points exists but is not active (yet). But not to sell points... (opt out badge - sell the lot to a fresher, donate the proceeds to the homeless and move on in life because the silly system here is becoming a waste of time no matter how much is complained about it or irrational the system gets).

Not even North Korea or Iran etc would dare such a functionality on a public website IMO, but SCN does it "under the bonnet".

--> just get rid of the idiotic points system. It will sort itself out and the noise will make the useful content more visible again without having to blog about it and pimp your friends.

Cheers,

Julius

[Former Member]

ps: Yes, I was reading those threads yesterday (Thomas Zloch reminded me of them). A pilot for a points free zone in the security areas to see whether quality improves and village idiot behavior becomes a rarety is highly welcome.

At the time I was told that I can forget about it because the risk of the pilot being successful was too great...

Cheers,

Julius

[Former Member]

I still have hope in such a pilot, otherwise I would not care about the Security Area and move on.

But I do confess to having become cynical about it over time and have developed a very low tollerance for "hug a tree" type of answers on the topic.

Marylin said: "Julius, as to your Security points free space request, perhaps we can revisit when we do get the opportunity to make space-specific elimination of points possible."

I cannot imagine an active contributor who did not game the system objecting to that. So we need to get a date from SCN team when that is possible and change "perhaps" to "we will try it".

Cheers,

Julius

[ThomasZloch]

 But I love that I'm silver now! 

...and why not? You won't stop there, I can tell. I don't doubt that the rankings can also motivate in a positive way, or they might just be seen as by-product of regular activity. I did see however so many negative effects of this competition over the years, that I would really love to see how things in a points-free zone would compare. If we don't try it, we will not know.

Let me page , who is by far the top contributor in ABAP Development discussions and has - as far as I know - never participated in a general discussion like this one. What is your motivation, are you doing it for the points? Would you continue helping people if no points could be earned, "just" reputation?

Thomas

[Steffi_Warnecke]

 I did see however so many negative effects of this competition over the years, that I would really love to see how things in a points-free zone would compare. If we don't try it, we will not know.

I think, that testing this would be pretty cool. It's like an experiment, so I'm all for it. 

And yes, as I said before the points - for me - are a way to show which content I like and in return, that people liked my contributions and which ones the most. It's a sign to know what I did good, even if not everybody writes a comment to tell me that. And in return content with a lot of positive feedback is something I'll look at more than content without ratings.

Unless it's from people I'm following or who have otherwise proven to me by previous posts, that I would find their input interesting. ^^

So I don't need points just for creating content, but I'd love to keep on getting and giving that feedback. The change of points in the header is just to keep track, like a counter. And to inform me, that someone liked something I wrote here.

I'm an optimist. I try to use the gamification like it was meant to be (at least that's what I see in it, the use I gain). But I also saw the misuse and therefor can absolutly understand, if some change is wanted to make it harder or even stop the points gaming. Because if they are used inflationary, my take on using the points to find good content will become impossible.

[Former Member]

I would also be interested in that.

The gem stone posts dont seem to care about points.

It is more the 24x7 folks who might answer any question.

If they dont really care either about the points, then it is proof that only noise cares about short term points.

I am certain that points free areas will increase the quality of the content. The security areas (Security General, IdM, SSO and GRC) can be used as a pilot. Some knowledgable folks and customers might come back...

Cheers,

Julius

[JL23]

I am certainly supporting such an experiment and would be curious about the results, but one need to be patient , as I can imagine that there will be a lot noise complaining about not having get any point for a correct answer, and 2 or 3 persons can make so many noise that it sounds like hundreds.

And people who do not get an answer directly after posting may move to other forums with points in the hope that they get the answer sooner here.

I see it all day, that people who get the discussions locked or rejected in MM are just posting in SD or PP. And  workflow and security questions appear more often in MM space...

[marilyn_pratt]

And I remember our "lively" discussion because I said then that the likelihood of points going bye-bye was pretty slim (ain't gonna happen) and I was very mindful that it was waving a red bandana in the bullring.  I don't purport to be an expert on what best motivates participation and what systems (gamification or points or tee-shirts) work best for getting people to engage but I recognize that we try and experiment and re-calibrate and sometimes make pretty astounding errors and recover.

Spent a good deal of time today reading about the topic today in other environments.

Stumbled on this piece.  Noticed who is commenting (hint 2 marks and a laure)

http://www.itbusinessedge.com/cm/blogs/all/are-social-rewards-enough-for-online-community-members/?c...

I also found an (old?) document from Jive and was quite surprised to read this stat:

"Reward Points and Question & Answer Workflow.

Perhaps the most important feature you introduce to a community, a reward point system helps ensure that constructive participation is recognized. Studies show that forums that have a reward system are 70% more likely to be successful.

Very interesting because if you follow the theory of incentivizing participation in online communities, it becomes clear that when people begin to collapse the incentive with the value, they move participation from a social context to a market context and the research seems to point to better participation when there isn't a "market" value but rather a social one.

Here's a link to the article (and it is old, from 2008 but still very interesting) http://www.freshnetworks.com/blog/2008/10/do-we-need-to-incentivise-participation-in-online-communit...

The article outlines a number of experiments and refers to monetary incentive but perhaps it might also be reflected in the point system:

"The outcome from these experiments is clear. The mention of money as an incentive for doing something shifts the context from a social one to a market one. People make a decision of how much they will contribute based on the value they think they are receiving. Without the money (or even with a gift not described in monetary terms), people operate firmly in the social context."

Now before you start throwing rotten apples and tomatoes at our team, think:  and her team worked to implement a reputation system, a badge system for acknowedgement.  NOT a point system.  That being said, I still doubt the point system will disappear entirely.

[Former Member]

Thanks Jürgen. I am perfectly ok with it if the noisy points-obsessed unprofessional folks bugger off somewhere else.

You are correct in saying that they are a small group but make the noise of hundreds.

The rest will all be fine I am sure. I also feel confident that some people will come back who left SDN / SCN because of the noise factor.

Cheers,

Julius

[Former Member]

Hi Marylin,

I did not see anyone complaining about loss of reputation last week.

It is the elements of cheating, plagarism, rivalry over silly points leadership and speculative or even incorrect information being contributed which I want to get rid of.

"Studies show that forums that have a reward system are 70% more likely to be successful."

No source mentioned nor how it was measured?. I would normally attribute that to a marketing blurb, but am also perfectly OK with it if 70% of the points-obsessed noise factor disappears. That would be a success.

Cheers,

Julius

[Steffi_Warnecke]

And people who do not get an answer directly after posting may move to other forums with points in the hope that they get the answer sooner here.

Well, there are always some users who think the answers to their so urgent problem come to slow. And they are already here. ^^ And then they are gone again. I think that "problem" exists no matter the system.

@Julius: Nobody complained about the reputation loss?! Or do you really mean "reputation" and not "points", because in my mind they are two different things, too.

The reputation system (likes, ratings, helpful & correct answers) was still intact, it was the points system that stopped working.

Or do you mean just in "your" space, the security area, nobody was concerned about the lack of points income? ^^

[raymond_giuseppi]

Thomas, I am going to answer : No I do not hunt points, even if I would lie by saying that I am fully indifferent. I like thinking that the removal of the system of points would have only not much impact on my participation. When I began on SAP, I was very satisfied to find this site and I try to return what I received. And sometimes certain questions are even interesting...

Would the removal of points reward or gamification have effects mainly profitable, very smart the one who would know without a trial period. The disappearance of some of the pasted answer of the point's hunters would result in a less active but more readable site, what would be the impact on the question posters?

Just for fun, let us not forget that a perfect site would be an apparently dead site, all the answers being already posted; no one would ever post a new question?

I would also thanks the moderators, as it is a heavy and thankless task to keep the site as clean as possible. Who always takes time to create a report of abuse when he sees one?

For the original subject, if removal of points in the Coffee Corner can help Gareth Ryan, also remove those.

Regards,

Raymond

[ThomasZloch]

Raymond, thanks for accepting the invitation and posting your point of view.

So you would still be with us in the (unlikely) case of a points-free experiment, that's great to know.

Thomas

[Sharathmg]

Points may be inviting the wrong content. Its a good suggestion to remove points for topics unrelated to SAP.

I feel it will retain the right people who will use it for the purpose it claims to be: "The official space where you can share and discuss any topic that is on your mind".

Regards,

Sharath

[Jelena_Perfiljeva]

Marilyn, I think you should post your response as a blog. To get more points, you know. Seriously, it's unfair for it to be buried among the many pages of comments here.

I also have to doubt Jive's 70% statistics. Saying "research shows" without providing a credible source of said research is just a "sales speak" for "our intern read it somewhere on the Internet, so it must be true". I somewhat actively participate in 4-5 other forums in 2 countries and none of them has any point system but all are quite successful in their domain. Two of them have a simple like/dislike reputation system and overall I can say that replies from the users with high reputation are also of high quality. None of those forums compare to SCN in volume or number of users, of course, but also none of them has such issues as SCN, e.g. with the "noise" obscuring relevant and valuable content. Anyone not searching before posting a question would be quickly directed to Search button and the thread locked instead of pouring in copy-pasted replies.

It's exactly right that points shift everything from "social" into "market" territory. "I'm asking a question and I demand an immediate answer because I'm paying you here in shiny points", then also people get upset because they feel they "didn't get paid enough". Explains a lot, actually, so - thank you for this reference.

P.S. Just realized that I can copy-paste your comment and make my own blog - score!!!

[marilyn_pratt]

Hi Julius,

I think if you read between the lines you'll see that we are in agreement.  I too was surprised by the stat in the Jive doc as noted above. In fact the other sources that I cite talk about social value rather than market value and Jive is, after all, marketing its platform which natively has a point system and not a reputation system.

In contrast,  and and the rest of our team together with the community think long and hard and dynamically (evolving and changing) about how to create a reputation system that is gaming resistant and robust.

In fact, the whole question of renewing the Coffee Corner was delayed for the very concerns now being raised: "Would people use it to game the system".  My colleagues spend a good deal of energy thinking of ways to create acknowledgement that reflects value. I must admit that I pushed for the CC despite the concerns.  The jury is still out as to whether that was the "best" choice.

Which brings me to an interesting point about success and failure, a topic that I am quite heavily invested in learning about presently.  When we try to make something "robust" and "resilient" to risk and to negative impacts or try to make something successful and we do so with one set way....we run an even greater risk of failure.

Why? 

Because much of what happens here might be described as "antifragile"  a premise discussed by statistician, Nassim Taleb. 

The basic premise (according to wikipedia) being:

"an ability to benefit and grow from a certain class of random events, errors, and volatility^[as well as "convex tinkering" as a method of scientific discovery, by which he (sic Taleb) means option-like experimentation outperforms directed research"

So you will see that what we do here is a set of experiments, some of which are successful (ie create a healthy community) and some are perhaps less so which create still and optimally an antifragile community.  One that becomes stronger not despite the errors but because of them.

Thanks for being so committedly a part of that process of continual change.