Something needs to be done about this Forum

[Former Member]

Hi All,

My opinion of the ABAP General forum is getting worse and worse as the days go by.

Look at this

/thread/549870 [original link is broken]

The response from Nagaraj s not required. In my opinion it is unprofessional and only placed there for the sole purpose of gaining these 'points' which people think is shows their ability within SAP.

SAP is a highly reputable application, with many unprofessional developers. I can say that based on the questions and answers within this Forum.

Oh and I am starting to really hate people comments at the end of their replies with: -

'Reward points if u find useful.'

The majority of replies are not useful, they are just copies of SAP help or links to other SDN threads which could of been found if the lazy, incompetant poster would of used the search facility.

[Former Member]

My attempt to stop this plague was to add this sticky post:

Additionally, I just delete any "Please reward..." comments silently. In the Web Dynpro Java forum this has proved rather successful.

Armin

[Former Member]

Hello. SDN has been a great source of help but also a great source of frustration.

My experience with SAP started about 2.5 years ago. We were converting our apps from IBM WebSphere to SAP's Netweaver and it seemed we were the only ones out there going through the issues.

Being used to using the Sun and IBM Java forums, I expected SDN to have a similar group of technical people. I was amazed at the types of questions I saw and even more amazed at the type of answers people were giving.

I can't tell you how many times I searched (oh, the struggles with SDN's search feature!) for problems or issues we were running into only to be sent on all kinds of wild goose chases by responses that just gave links to other posts which in turn gave links to other posts which in turn ... only to find myself back at the post I started with.

Or going to a link, reading the post, trying the suggestion, then when it didn't work, trying it again because "I must have done something wrong since I'm so new to this SAP stuff" only to find out that the person didn't really understand what I was asking.

It took me a looong time (OK, I'm a little slow) but I finally realized that a lot of these people don't really want to help. They just want the stupid points. They quickly glanced at my question, hung on some term in my question and sent me to a link related to THAT term but not really to my problem. Man, if I could only have back all the time I lost from those.

It's a shame that this goes on but I really don't know what the solution is. I've seen the "get rid of points" cries and I have certainly felt that way many times. On the one hand, it would get rid of some of the 'point hunters' but on the other hand it might deter some people who REALLY help. I have to admit that it was a good feeling the first time I got assigned points for helping someone. But it's not really the points. It's the feeling that I can finally help someone else like I've been helped.

The suggestions for more vigilance by the moderators makes sense but it's hard to get people to volunteer their time to do that. Plus, who decides the guidelines for what's appropriate or not? In some cases a response with just a link is fine. As long as the person has read the question, understood it and sends you to something related to what you actually asked.

My opinion is the same as those who have suggested that SAP should really step up and be more active in this. There have been numerous times that an OSS message response has been to go look at SDN or "did you ask in SDN first?" or even to send me to a specific SDN post or blog.

If SAP is going to do that then, in my opinion, they should take more of an ownership in SDN. Whenever I've complained about something related to SDN to an SAP person I've gotten the "well, it's not really OURS" or something like that. C'mon! It would help not only SAP but the customers if we cleaned this up and made it first-rate.

Yes, it might cost a little more for SAP but in the long-term SAP would benefit greatly from it. And it might actually save them money eventually because it might reduce OSS messages.

Whew. Sorry for the "book". This has been on my mind a long time and I just had to get it out when I saw this post. : )

David.

[Former Member]

David,

That was a great post. I related to it very well. I have only seen SAP for 11 months now and I was thrust into a company where I was the lone ABAPer. I had to learn from SDN and books (heavy on the SDN). I am just now learning how to weed through the posts, that you get when you search, to find what you want. It is usually just a starting point but sometimes it will be the answer wrapped in a package.

One possible answer that I can think of is changing the points to more of a thanks. I post on some other, non SAP, forums that have a thanks button. Basically it just shows that you found the post helpful, or even if you didn't need the help it shows that you feel that it is a good post. I think, I hope, that most users on SDN don't post for the points but post for the "feeling" of helping others. I know it felt great the first time (and every time) I helped somebody with their problem.

Yes it could be abused but anything can be abused. This thanks system could also, potentially, help with searching. It would help weed out the useless threads.

[Former Member]

Thanks Martin:

I already delete those e-mails and that "please reward" from the thread -:)

Greetings,

Blag.

[Former Member]

It is the 'Award points if useful' on the majority of replies that is annoying me.

There needs to be more stricter rules on these forums: -

If the same people keep asking stupid questions when it is obvious they are not using the help facility they should be banned. Yes they can create a new logon, but eventually may get the idea. Is it possible to ban via IP address for a week.

If people reply to threads will the obvious cut and paste from SAP help, then they two are banned.

We stop anybody haveing the 'Please award points.... blah blah blah. message at the end of their replies.

This may seem harsh, but people will soon learn.

I am over 18 and do not need to see these idiotic questions.

I put on another post about forcing a new thread to use the search facility like SAP OSS does before you post an query. It could then be seen if the user asking the question has used the help facility and what question they asked.

Asking questions like ' How do you create IDoc's', 'What type of internal tables are there'....etc only gets a reponse from people who like to do CTRLC, CTRLV to get the points.

I hope my feelings on this subject are loud and clear to all moderators of these forums.

[Former Member]

Relax Martin -:) You seem to be really upset...I actually understant your complains about <i>Please reward</i>...Because being a Moderator I have to read all posts and edit those kind of messages...

I have seen some people that after watching their posts being modified by me, have kidly stop asking for points...I think that is mostly a newbie problem...People with less than 500 points do that most of the time...People with more than 1,000 points don't do that...

Rules must be enforced I agree...What we have some Rules of Engagement, that aren't readed by most of the SDNers...That's the main problem...

Greetings,

Blag.

[Former Member]

Banning by IP address would not be good at all. If you ban by IP address you could be banning other people from the same company.

[Former Member]

That's true...Also, here on Perú for example...When you get connected to the Internet, you get a random IP assigned...So you could be banning anyone here -:P

Greetings,

Blag.

[dhorions]

I wasn't planning on saying anything about this (yet) but since I got sick of all the useless posts in these forums I created a little tool to solve it, at least for myself.

I made a rss reader specifically for the sdn forums. It allows me to mark certain threads on 4 criteria : "point Hunter","can't Search", "Interview Question" and "Copyrighted material". It keeps statistics for each user about the percentage of posts in each of these criteria. Then, all rss feeds are filtered according to a treshhold for each of the criteria. So if a user has 70% posts that are clearly demonstrating his/her inability to search, all threads from this poster get filtered from my rss feed. When he keeps posting and his/hers percentage drops below the treshhold, posts start reappearing. If they still aren't usefull, I just mark them again, and the percentage rises again.

I've been testing this for a few days now, and it works really well.

After a few more days of testing, and when I have the time, I'll put the script on line somewhere for everyone to use.

[eddy_declercq]

Hi,

I've seen Dries' application and it's wonderful! A step further would be that the community could add filters. A bit like Cloudmark, a spam filter where the filters are kept centrally and where the customers can mark msgs as spam. When it reaches certain treshold, it is considered as spam and will automatically deleted for all users.

The problem with extending this is having a server with enough bandwith and the community doesn't need to pay for the problems caused by others.

Eddy

[marilyn_pratt]

That's the spirit. Looking forward to seeing the application in action. Understand that "Grumpy" got a sneak preview and that it has his stamp of approval.....now that's something

[Former Member]

That sounds like an interesting tool. I must ask though, does it collect data on all posts a user makes or just threads that they start. I am sure that my first few months on this forum would classify me as a "can't search" person. However, the search function on SDN is, well, very bad and it takes quite a while to get used to it. I am just now beginning to understand how to use it so that you get the results you want. Because of that many of my early threads were unnecessary and were already answered.

Also, I am interested in knowing what the criteria is for being a point hunter. This took sounds very interesting and very useful. I look forward to the day that you release it to the community.

[dhorions]

Davis,

It only takes into account the threads a user starts.

It is a single user (php-)application, so you decide for yourself what a point hunter is. (downside being that you need a php-capable webserver and a mysql database to run it).

I was planning on making it a general tool that runs on a server everyone can access, but there were just too many problems involved, the most important ones being :

- bandwidth cost, server load

- authentication : since I have no way of knowing people are who they claim to be

- time : my spare time is limited and extremely valuable , at least to me .

[Former Member]

Dries, thanks for clearing it up. Yes, that makes a lot more sense as far as it being an individual's decision. I was under the impression that the logic was built in and the code determined who was the point hunter, etc...

[Former Member]

Dries,

You should be awarded SDNer of the month, or Year...

I guess this is where action starts - to reclaim SDN

cheers,

[Former Member]

So do most feel that points are the only reason that the majority of SDN users help others? Personally I could care less about points. I help out (when I can) because others helped me out and I feel that it is my duty to return the favor. I also get satisfaction knowing that I am able to help others.

[Former Member]

perhaps SDN should have a button to REPORT bad posts, this would bring up a form with multiple reasons for reporting a topic.

reasons:

SPAM

duplicates

too lazy to search

point hunters (please give points)

etc...

mods would be able to flag quickly reported post and act on them quickly.

that sounds easy. does it?

[Former Member]

Exactly Davis, this is the right attitude to get about forums.

That is why a lot of people are telling SAP that thay should completely dump the poins system.

[Former Member]

Hello Eric,

I'm not sure a button would help much. The moderators see also directly the bad posts.

I think that they just don't have enough time to enforce a strict policy.

That's why I proposed full time SAP hired moderators.

Yes it would cost money to SAP but I think this would be an investment with good return for SAP.

Regards,

Olivier

[Former Member]

> I think that they just don't have enough time to

> enforce a strict policy.

> That's why I proposed full time SAP hired

> moderators.

>

> Yes it would cost money to SAP but I think this would

> be an investment with good return for SAP.

I would have to agree with the above statements. I think the moderators do a great job on these forums but I also feel like they do not have enough time to do what people are asking. Also, as others say, it would be, IMO, a good investment for SAP if they would fund full-time moderators. It wouldn't take many but instead each paid moderator would be in charge of several forums.

I am sure that it isn't a possibility but it would help the forums and also help SAP, in the long run. One of the driving forces for small business to choose one ERP over another is the free support available. I have family that owns businesses and they are all looking for an ERP type solution. SAP is too costly for them without some type of free support. While I know it is out there (SDN and other forums) but it would look better if SAP "sponsored" a free support system.

[dhorions]

Paid moderators would be nice, but seriously : if you have good sap/abap skills, would you go for a job that makes you read and moderate forums 40 hours a week? I sure wouldn't.

[Former Member]

They wouldn't necessarily have to have good sap/abap skills. Anybody with any type of computer knowledge would be able to pick out the people who are looking for interview questions, simple (broad) answers, etc... Granted I can only speak about the ABAP forums. I do not often go to the other forums so I am not sure of the type of posts there.

I agree though, I'm not sure that I would want to sit and moderate forums for 40 hours a week.

[Former Member]

> I agree though, I'm not sure that I would want to sit

> and moderate forums for 40 hours a week.

That's exactly what I do...Am I missing money? Should SDN pay me at least for my breakfast?

Greetings,

Blag.

[Former Member]

Martin

There are several similar threads running..

I feel your pain. The XI Forum is very similar. The point system should be scrapped.

I don't understand why so many people ask for points. It's not like the can be converted to Air Miles ( or can they?????)

[Former Member]

Hi,

<b>All</b> forums are now destroyed progressivly by these crappy posts.

A lot of pepole are complaining about this situation generated by the point system and the "famous t-shirts" that must be worth 1000 thds of dollars in Asia.

I proposed to have a very strict moderation enforced by <b>full time SAP professional moderators</b> because the forums are just too huge to be moderated as a hobby or a part-time help process. We see the result...

SAP, as a company, does not give to itself the ressources to get real professional <b>Expert</b> Forums as they are supposed to be.

Regards,

Olivier

[Former Member]

Do you realize that people openly ask here,on official SAP forums how to get illegally copyrighted documentation or how to cheat on their resumes or certification exams ?

[Former Member]

> Do you realize that people openly ask here,on

> official SAP forums how to get illegally copyrighted

> documentation or how to cheat on their resumes or

> certification exams ?

Please send me the same... my email addy is copy@right.theft

😄

I moderate on another sap forum, but we don;t get the same level of stupid questions on such a regular basis. We operate a zero tolerance policy and if the basic rules are not met, we lock. repeat offenders get banned.

[Former Member]

>>I feel your pain. The XI Forum is very similar

I cant agree more with you.

@Blag,

It is gonna be a really really tough job if you want to delete "Award if helpful"s in XI forum. Just try opening a few recent threads in XI forum and you can find almost all threads with the banner "Award if helpful". Am really upset with this. Some kind of strict moderation is a must.

Regards,

Jai Shankar

[Former Member]

Martin - I think the guiding principle on threads like this is "ask a dumb question and you get a dumb answer".

And Blag usually removes requests for points.

Rob