Recession consequences on SAP

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Dear SDN,

What do you think of the consequences to SAP market in USA and India to recession.

Do you think new clients wll go for implementation this year.

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Bumping this thread.

Any toughts about what's been happening lately?

At least over here I haven't seen a big slowdown of Sap related jobs in the last year

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I've been hearing that the market in South America has been doing well. I'm in work and have lots to do, and no evidence of layoffs yet. ( Though a friend in the chemical industry is on short time ). The UK, by all reports, is pretty dire.

matt

Hy Matt,

As a Globalid !! i really intrested to know your opnion now which is the country that is less effected around the globe!!!

i am asking especially you because you are the person whose network is world wide i believe...and lot of friends i hope so..So just intrested to know your opnion..in 2 aspects....

1) Specially for sap

2) All the technologies

if any one too add their 2 cents welcome!!

Regards

sas

Look for countries which don't have such a credit economy, and also those (if any!) that don't rely heavily on countries which have credit economies. Another track is to consider industries that don't boom so much during boom time. They tend also to not collapse during recession.

matt

Hi Matt,

Thanks for reverting back...But question is i am not asking the strategies which will avoid recession....

in your opnion what is the best country that effected veryless with recession..???

Regards

sas

>what is the best country that effected veryless with recession..???

Tuvalu ?

Tuvalu sounds good.

Do they do visa? Or, a gift of two chickens for the boy king still the entry norm?

I think Zimbabwe is good too, you can experience being a billionaire (before you buy two chickens with all your billions ).

Apart from Tuvalu.. I heard Brazil's fairing well for the emerging markets. World Bank just cut China's growth forecast.

We need to look into the countries that relies heavily on export (ergo, a sickly trade deficit) - and specifically in the manufacturing sector. If you're an export economy and doesn't have a local market to support the country's supply of goods and services, then you are in trouble with deflation - deflation means job cuts. And oil exporting countries should be cutting back on spending as well - but that's a downward spiral.

At least on the avenues I mentioned, the list already shrinks to rock bottom. 😛

So, Tuvalu is our winner i guess.

Edited by: JMJ on Mar 19, 2009 8:53 AM

I believe Tuvalu needs NetWeaver for some huge merger.


> Hi Matt,
> 
> Thanks for reverting back...But question is i am not asking the strategies which will avoid recession....
> in your opnion what is the best country that effected veryless with recession..???
> 
> Regards
> sas

I understand that - I just don't have an answer.

matt


> I understand that - I just don't have an answer.  
> matt

Ha Ha Lol !! it sounds either i just dont like to answer

Regards

sas

OK... I don't like to answer. In case I'm wrong... where I am at the moment seems ok so far. But to be frank, I think we're at the start of the storm, not the end, and things could change dramatically very quickly.

Let's just not hope SAP consultants end up selling hotdog sandwiches.

On a serious note though, look at it this way - clients are cutting-costs (though some might invest more on advertising/marketing) and they know they need IT. So, in order to balance that - they'll opt to source more with far experienced consultants than hiring a swarm of less experienced consultants. Faster delivery, less expenses. Skill growth for the much newer consultants could slow down - at least until demand spikes up again where firms can invest on building skills for 'fresh' to-be consultants.

So, at least in my point of view, SAP resources will weather the storm. Demand slows - but there's always an upward direction after thing start to bottom-up.

Panic, no. Be prepared, yes.


> Let's just not hope SAP consultants end up selling hotdog sandwiches.

Lol!!! O my god !!! ha ha ..Sincerely every consultant pray to god this situation should not come...

But JM if like this situation occurs do u really think is there any one there to Buy/Effort hand dogs and

sandwiches..

Regards

sas

My dear friend, in business - there's always a market. It's just a matter of making a system that can make us sell good yet affordable sandwiches.

As far as the trend goes, I'm seeing BASIS consultants checking if the hotdogs/frankfurts are up-to-date, else they have to patch it up with newer ones -- or just add some SAP_ALL to the hotdogs so we can continue the business AND cut overhead. Well as for ABAP consultants, they'll handle the creation of the sandwiches - mustard, onions, etc. For FI/CO consultants, well they'll handle the financials...nothing new. BI/BW consultants can do analysis of our sales on a piece of paper and so to report at which period we our hotdog sandwiches perform best. For Portal Consultants, well we will sell the hotdogs.. and we'll keep on pestering BASIS for not updating the hotdogs.

I don't know where to place the others, but hey -- we have a future here. Don't be wary.. we are set.

Regards,


> I don't know where to place the others....

The SD guys... you forgot the SD guys. They spend a couple of nights at Hooters clicking a few pictures and using them as Brand Ambassadors. The HR guys could take a few hundred interviews a month and not select anyone just to keep themselves busy and avoid using the axe on their own legs.

The PS guys could do with a little bit of Planning, which the others can conveniently avoid implementing. The MM can do their usual purchasing and may even Subcontract a few Hot Dog preparations from the neighbouring alley.

The CRM can work like they care for the customers...

Yeah... No Kidding. We are all set!!!

>The HR guys could take a few hundred interviews a month and not select anyone just to keep >themselves busy and avoid using the axe on their own legs.

Lol!!!!!! Kishan at your Best !! and what a funny...i am just about say what about HR's JMJ? and posted the things

Regards

sas

Indeed we are.

Let's just hope our PM for our hotdog sandwich business not require us to go produce gold out of this in 2 weeks.

I remember "Hooters" being popular among consultants across all modules, it was even downright client-independent!

I think a bigger impact will be the elections....with some candidates talking about eliminating some tax breaks for those companies that send US work overseas. That one could be interesting.

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Actually the whole question of "Outsourcing" / "Offshoring" in the UK (and mainland Europe) is being looked at again.

Since the advent of the "Sub Prime Slime" which has devastated the banking industry in the US business models looking at that particular country are no longer taken for granted as offering the best "bang for buck".

Nobody doubts the US inventiveness or sheer business energy - however "Profit above all else" is not a particular philosophy most European countries are willing to accept any more willy nilly -- especially as some of the most highly paid individuals in the world have caused an utter nightmare in the Banking and finance industries.

Offshoring can be viable but in very carefully controlled business environments. Once the quality of the staff fails or the business processes are not understood then it's a total recipe for disaster.

Good business analysts are paid excellent money with reason.

It doesn't matter how many "Off Shore PhD" people are available if they are basically just "Interview Monkeys" and haven't a clue about the business processes involved. --If you doubt this just look at the basic questions asked on the various ABAP Forums.

For example what do you think when a "so called Security expert" has to ask what transaction SU53 does --need I go on.

SAP will continue to deliver great business improvements and huge cost savings so long as management understands what they are trying to do.

It's great to see that a number of UK businesses have decided to really cut back on "Offshoring" - particularly in the area of Call centres, help desks and business analysis.

Some UK banks (again not my most favourite industry) are now placing TV commercials with their major theme "All UK call centres". or " UK call centres only".

A viable area for "offshoring" is still "Basis" and Network support but for anything else the days of this are really are really numbered - at least outside the US.

I can't comment on the situation in the US - epsecially given the gullability of the banking system in buying all sorts of packages when they hadn't a clue what was in them. (The "Sub Prime Slime" again).

Even the poorest person going into a Supermarket to buy food knows what he / she is buying .

Finally with the advent of "Green" philopsphies and the almost complete automation of manufacturing processes it really doesn't make sense anymore to import huge quantities of manufactured goods from around the world.

In the near future when you can for example produce say Washing Machines from a factory using a very small number of people the advantage in having these factories half way around the world from the end consumers also doesn't make sense anymore both from a logistics and an environmental point of view.

It may take a few years but these "automated" factories will inevitably return to where consumers wish to buy the products so the huge boom for India and China in being the producers for the world will only be a temporary phenomenon.

For the first time in over 10 years I rather feel that the outlook for I.T consultants (SAP or otherwise) is rather better in Europe than it will be in India in the next few years unless you are into "Networks", "Basis" or "Hardware".

Now that's a turn round for the book.

The future for SAP is not at all bleak in the current environment.

Cheers

jimbo

> For example what do you think when a "so called Security expert" has to ask what transaction SU53 does --need I go on.

That's the transaction which formats the C drive, isn't it?

A formatted C:\, that's as secure as it gets. I want more SU53!

What's a 'C' drive.

Is this one you can actually SEE.

Cheers

jimbo

> What's a 'C' drive.

> Is this one you can actually SEE.

Of course you can see it, but the C is for sea (as I understood from another thread we are to be very kind to those who use SMS lingo - we can't tell them to s0d o1616...).

As we all know the C can take on a whole range of colours. That's why it is called the C-drive, because it holds the colours, as opposed to the D drive which holds the digits.

Hi Kjetil,

So, if I understand well a C drive is a scenic drive along the coast.

That's what I intend to do on my motorcycle in your beautiful country next june !

Regards,

Olivier

> So, if I understand well a C drive is a scenic drive along the coast.

I believe those would be the exact words in the executive summary that Gartner would charge 25K for.

> That's what I intend to do on my motorcycle in your beautiful country next june !

I hope you get some nice weather! Last summer was terrible in Southern Norway, while I had OK weather in the northern part (actually closer to the middle). Not sure where I am going this year. Girlfriend 2.0 wants to have a say - have you heard such outrageous news!

If you haven't planned everything yet, I recommend you try to include the [coastal highway|http://www.rv17.no|website available in Norwegian and English, free brochure also available in German]. Along it you find not only beautiful scenery, but also good fish and lovely beaches

I suppose that's it for advertising. Better restrain myself before I get moderated by others.

Offshoring was always about price (anybody who says otherwise is deluded or lying), and wage inflation in India, plus the fall of the dollar are pushing the price up.

I'm not saying all Indian programmers are bad - but many are, just look around this site - and when you're only halff as good, it's still a bargain if you're a quarter of the price. When that price differential goes away, it makes sense (even if you're a beancounter) to go for quality not quantity.


Nobody doubts the US inventiveness or sheer business energy - however "Profit above all else" is not a particular philosophy most European countries are willing to accept any more willy nilly -- especially as some of the most highly paid individuals in the world have caused an utter nightmare in the Banking and finance industries.

The problem is that to most Americans, any attempt to reign that in is perceived as communism. Stock options seemed like a good idea, aligning the interests of the management with the company and sounds moral too - the better you perform, the more money you make. But nobody considered the long term vs short term question.


I can't comment on the situation in the US - e given the gullability of the banking system in buying all sorts of packages when they hadn't a clue what was in them. (The "Sub Prime Slime" again).

They're all crosslinked in such a way that nobody knows what their positions are - not even themselves. What's more, that means there's effectively no firewalls between them and if one goes belly up there could well be a chain reaction.


In the near future when you can for example produce say Washing Machines from a factory using a very small number of people the advantage in having these factories half way around the world from the end consumers also doesn't make sense anymore both from a logistics and an environmental point of view.

Perhaps, but perhaps not. You'd still have to move the raw materials. It takes quite a lot of coal to make steel - I forget the exact ratios.


It may take a few years but these "automated" factories will inevitably return to where consumers wish to buy the products so the huge boom for India and China in being the producers for the world will only be a temporary phenomenon.

That's assuming there's anyone left in the rest of the world who knows how to make things. It makes me think of this [play|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Admirable_Crichton]

Hello Kjetil,

>If you haven't planned everything yet, I recommend you try to include the coastal highway. Along it >you find not only beautiful scenery, but also good fish and lovely beaches

I hope the weather will be not too bad because I will use the tent...

Thanks, for the tip, I will get a look at this coastal highway !

Regards,

Olivier

An A drive is for a floppy - it's quite small and flat. A C drive is quite a bit bigger. D,E and F are bigger still.

>An A drive is for a floppy - it's quite small and flat. A C drive is quite a bit bigger. D,E and F are >bigger still.

For my production R/3 system, I have a W: drive for data files, that's why my database is so huge !

"What does SU53 not do?" is an okay question though...

In Egypt, they have a D-drive: desert drive

That is a lot of wishful thinking for one post.

Can you cite one single example of european business leadership as opposed to americans'? Subprime crisis? Really, it is only in US? And banking lapses? SocGeneral anyone?

You have every right to feel happy about reversal of outsourcing trend (assuming you assess it correctly), that doesn't say anything about this business practice being right or wrong.

I would stick my neck and say the business knowledge is as overhyped if not more. Any person, of suitable intelligence, can learn and become a business analyst (or functional consultant in SAP world). It is no more or less than how it is for a technical consultant.

If anything, now the trend is also to have more innovation in developing countries. Europe and US have reaped a lot of value from their earlier lead in innovation and technologies without the same level of resentment in developing countries that outsourcing generates in these developed countries. I really find it amusing (for the lack of a more appropriate word).

Lot of people seem gleeful on this 'end of outsourcing' as if it being a case of poetic justice. Understand that these countries (read India) are not content being the leading outsourcing provider. There are enough indicators to see the bigger picture of how these countries have the inherent strength to change the economic equations existing in the world today, outsourcing playing a very minor part in it.

I do not wish to undermine the destabilizing effects of outsourcing or similar practices, however, it is too simplistic to wish it away to make everything alright. And, also, the grudge held by some here (and it comes across in different forms - attempted humor, sarcasm, pontification, condescension), is quite misplaced and disproportional. I would say live with it, just like other countries have lived with centuries of western economic (and other) hegemony.

> I do not wish to undermine the destabilizing effects of outsourcing or similar practices, however, it is too simplistic to wish it away to make everything alright. And, also, the grudge held by some here (and it comes across in different forms - attempted humor, sarcasm, pontification, condescension), is quite misplaced and disproportional. I would say live with it, just like other countries have lived with centuries of western economic (and other) hegemony.

Hard words - I agree - partially.

What I have seen in that past (let's say) 10 years is, that all major players in the IT world (speaking of e. g. hardware vendors HP/Compaq and also SAP) have lost in quality doing "outsourcing". And listen, I'm not saying, people of other countries/ethnicities don't have the skill or are silly, but almost each week I hear or experience myself another story that proves that I (and my colleagues) can't be that wrong with the opinion, that things are developing in the not-so-right direction.

You open a call somewhere and talk to people in Bulgaria, they take the call and forward to Romania, then put it into disposition somewhere in Germany where you speak with yet another person. "Effectiveness" is something different - at least in my understanding.

The absolute antagonism is, that one gets the impression if you read the papers from SAP, that they are a "business process company" but that they build their (support) business process in a structure, it just can't work by definition - due to different time zones, language barriers (not everyone dealing with SAP software speaks English) and different mentalities across different countries.

Compare hegemony of things that took place decades before today in the every-day-faster-living IT world and just accept it as-is can't either be the right way of seeing things. And no, I have no answer, I just see the development with anxiety. I agree with you, that blaming and bashing people (and/or countries) is not nice/right but if you experience each day yet-another story of things where you can just shake you head, one just can't stay impartial, irrespective of professionalism and being "open minded" - that's human nature.

Just my 0.02 €

Markus

What I have seen in that past (let's say) 10 years is, that all major players in the IT world (speaking of e. g. hardware vendors HP/Compaq and also SAP) have lost in quality doing "outsourcing".

So you mean to say SAP was 100% fool-proof back in the old days when it was developed in Germany! Of course not, we had OSS and SAP Notes from then on. MS Windows is not an Indian product. What I can glean from the way the businesses operate is this - they release a product, however incomplete( I didn't want to use 'crappy') it may be, once they start generating revenue they begin fixing/improving it. This is a fact and it is right across the whole world across all types of businesses. This cycle goes on leading ultimately to the business developing enough muscle to silence its critics or wither their attacks.

Infosys, an Indian outsourcer, would not have been partnering with GE if GE had ever doubted their quality and standards. Many of the leading Indian outsourcers at least, follow a regimen of strict standard compliance like CMM, etc. I will definitely doubt the smaller one-man shops that dot the landscape, even here in Oz.

Edited by: Ravi Dixit on Feb 13, 2008 3:14 PM

What I have seen in that past (let's say) 10 years is, that all major players in the IT world (speaking of e. g. hardware vendors HP/Compaq and also SAP) have lost in quality doing "outsourcing".

So you mean to say SAP was 100% fool-proof back in the old days when it was developed in Germany! Of course not, we had OSS and SAP Notes from then on. MS Windows is not an Indian product. What I can glean from the way the businesses operate is this - they release a product, however incomplete( I didn't want to use 'crappy') it may be, once they start generating revenue they begin fixing/improving it. This is a fact and it is right across the whole world across all types of businesses. This cycle goes on leading ultimately to the business developing enough muscle to silence its critics or wither their attacks.

No - I don´t say they are/were "fool-proof" - I say that their support was MUCH better years ago, at times it was located (mainly) in Germany for the main part of the (R/3) system. For being a German customer it was at that time a Good Thing (TM) to open a call in the mother language, no matter what problem it was and to get help. Nowadays I need to open calls mainly in english which makes things cumbersome, especially if it´s not a technical call but coming out of an application which has its own SAP terminology. I could, however open in German too and let it translate internally - but you loose time.

I´m not stating on Windows since we intentionally don´t use it on our servers.

Infosys, an Indian outsourcer, would not have been partnering with GE if GE had ever doubted their quality and standards. Many of the leading Indian outsourcers at least, follow a regimen of strict standard compliance like CMM, etc. I will definitely doubt the smaller one-man shops that dot the landscape, even here in Oz.

I don´t and didn´t dare to question that - people there doing certainly a good job. The "big picture" may look right and the result counts. However, what one is always forgetting are the people behind. It creates lots of frustration (not only speaking of myself) and hence slowing down an "IT service process". That´s the experience I (and my collegues) made, your mileage may vary. I´m not saying generally "outsourcing/offshoring is a bad thing" - I just made my experiences.

Markus


So you mean to say SAP was 100% fool-proof back in the old days when it was developed in Germany!

I dont think he was even implying that.

This cycle goes on leading ultimately to the business developing enough muscle to silence its critics or wither their attacks.

Or, they finally fix it. Win XP isn't too bad with SP2. Of course then they release Vista...

 
> Many of the leading Indian outsourcers at least, follow a regimen of strict standard compliance like CMM, etc. I will definitely doubt the smaller one-man shops that dot the landscape, even here in Oz.

What's wrong with one man shops? Obviously they can't supply a whole project team (though you could assemble your own). One advantage is that you know who you're getting, not like some of the consulting firms who (allegedly) use their best people for the bidding phase and then you never see them again.

I'm not sure CMM proves anything - isn't it like ISO 9001 in the sense that you can make chocolate teapots, as long as you document it?

Globalization s a good thing. Free trade is benificial to all nations.

While currently the West is dominating the global economy, there will be a shift in the late 21st century. By then, Asia will have a lot of educated intelligent people in the workforce and in the middle class.

Products and services should flow freely accross borders. Those who dsagree with this will find themselves on the wrong side of history.

Al Lal

www.olap.wetpaint.com

While currently the West is dominating the global economy, there will be a shift in the late 21st century. By then, Asia will have a lot of educated intelligent people in the workforce and in the middle class.

I never doubt that.

Products and services should flow freely accross borders. Those who dsagree with this will find themselves on the wrong side of history.

My concern was not about "should or should not" - I was talking about effectiveness. Don´t you think it´s a bit "borderline" to send crabs from Norway to Marocco to shell them and then send them to Rotterdam/NL to ship them to somewhere else? Globalization has many faces - not only economically.

Markus

That reminds me of a story that made the news here recently, where Prawns that were caught in the North Sea and landed in Scotland were frozen and shipped by container to Thailand to be shelled by hand, then repackaged and shipped back to the UK for sale. The company said this method was more eco-friendly.

Is it so darn difficult to invent a crab-shelling-machine? Let me sit down and write a quick ABAP for that purpose...

I think your working hours are WAY too expensive for that. Shipping to the other side of the world and let it be made there by hand and sending back is MUCH cheaper!

Markus

"much cheaper" - Maybe not if a company had to take carbon footprint measurements into consideration more seriously. Sustainability issues could certainly be a recession consequence of any company. Would be great to engage in that kind of conversation over on the [CSR|; forum. Some really great minds are engaged in "addressing environmental and societal demands on business" presently. Not surprising that the coffee corner "chats" capture some of the real burning issues: burning resources, burning up our business viability.

Businesses self-adjust (or perish) primarily driven by self-interest, as we individuals do. Outsourcing, or any other destabilizing practice, evolves as we get to know the pros and cons associated with it. Regulatory mechanisms are supposed to take care of its side-effects which also evolve over time.

This is a natural way of progress - along comes an event with strong effects, businesses harness it in their interest, governments regulate, and we all adapt to it.

I find the self-righteous activism (eg against outsourcing) a little disconcerting (though not unexpected) given the history of how same groups have been on benefitting side of similar other events over time.

This is a general observation, not directed to any posts in this thread. I write it because I find this activism at many internet fora, inclduing SDN. I think getting into the activist mode sometimes undermines the cause.

Now an aside.

I for one think the influence of American Pop Culture the world (including Europe) over is way more important and way less discussed than things like outsourcing. You wouldn't believe how many people in India (and I am sure in many other countries) get to know Scarlett Johansson's Obama fixation, or, Nancy Pelosi's Botox? thanks to 24x7 media so enamored with American Pop. In terms of its effects on civilization I would say it is as big as anything there is, however it is seldom discussed. I wonder...

>"much cheaper" - Maybe not if a company had to take carbon footprint measurements into consideration more seriously. Sustainability issues could certainly be a recession consequence of any company.

I don't know if you have heard of what's happening in Germany, in Bochum, where Nokia will close a big factory due to "too high labor costs" in Germany. Just a few days after this was announced, Nokia presented its figures about revenues - and what do you guess? Nokia is HIGHLY profitable (http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=206100944).

This is cynicism in its most undiluted shape.

It's all about money, listed companies have to keep their shareholder value up - and growing constantly, irrespective of social responsibility. I'm thankful, that SAP is still present in Germany - and expanding there - not only because it's Germany (my home country) but also because it's showing me, that they are very conscious of their liability and acting appropriately.

Markus

Hmmm, I'm sorry but I've absolutely no idea of who are Scarlett Johansson and Nancy Pelosi.

And guess what ? I'm absolutely not interested to know who they are !

Hmmm, I'm sorry but I've absolutely no idea of who are Scarlett Johansson and Nancy Pelosi.
And guess what ? I'm absolutely not interested to know who they are !

Good to know all is not lost afterall, there is still hope

> I find the self-righteous activism (eg against outsourcing) a little disconcerting (though not unexpected) given the history of how same groups have been on benefitting side of similar other events over time.

Give an example - what do you mean?

> This is a general observation, not directed to any posts in this thread. I write it because I find this activism at many internet fora, inclduing SDN. I think getting into the activist mode sometimes undermines the cause.

I feel addressed

Of course, I (and many others) may see things just too simplified, I wouldn't personally consider me as an "activist", neither for one or the other side. It's just my plain experience in the area I'm touched in my daily business - seen over a longer period of time (a decade or more). I'm also not one of those saying "everything has been better before" - there's assuredly more than black and white.

> I for one think the influence of American Pop Culture the world (including Europe) over is way more important and way less discussed than things like outsourcing. You wouldn't believe how many people in India (and I am sure in many other countries) get to know Scarlett Johansson's Obama fixation, or, Nancy Pelosi's Botox? thanks to 24x7 media so enamored with American Pop. In terms of its effects on civilization I would say it is as big as anything there is, however it is seldom discussed. I wonder...

I agree 100 % but do you see that things are also vice versa? "Bollywood" and "Shah Rukh Kahn" is hyped and celebrated in (e. g.) Germany too. He's in Germany on the Berlinale - along with Madonna, U2 and other well known celebrities - and present on TV and in the media as well. There are Indian festivals taking place in Germany, people start to be interested in Indian culture, medicine and religion, this is VERY visible. However, this may not be true for US (I just don't know).

Markus


Globalization s a good thing. Free trade is benificial to all nations.

I really don't think so.

At least over here it has widen the gap between rich and poor.

Only the already privileged can compete in the global market while the poor lose any oportunity to fight the global giants.

As someone said in the Nokia case, is just cynism and companies totally forget their social responsability.

Globalization is not a good thing, never was and never will

Economists have proven that free trade benefits all participating nations. I know this because I studied free trade and wrote a paper on it, while in college.

Since India opened up its economy, it has been growing very fast. Now it is growing at about 9% p.a. In India wages have gone up. Everyone is making more money, including the poor.

I grew up in 4 different countries, and studied and worked in 3 different countries. So I have first hand knowledge about the global economy.

A country like Singapore has greatly benefited from being part of the global economy. Living standards are similar to America, and wages are at approximately 60% of USA. The pre-university education system is British, with A Levels and O levels, turning out a well educated workforce.

Globalization is good and happening, and it cannot be stopped. As I said before, those nations who disagree with this will find themselves on the wrong side of history.

Al Lal

www.olap.wetpaint.com

While my knowledge of economy is scant, just spent a day listening to what some experts had to say on the theme of "[Triple Bottom Line|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_bottom_line]" while attending a conference in New York organized by The Economist. I understood that a company's activities are not only negatively impacting their surroundings, although many of us tend to focus on the darker side of business impact, but also having good effect. I had the privilege of hearing Jane Nelson, CSR Initiative director at Harvard's School of Government say "the greatest business contribution to society is creating wealth". What was also quite surprising to hear was the following: "strong financial performance is consistent with action on sustainability and companies focusing on sustainability issues are twice as likely to see human rights in Supply Chain as priority". Another surprise: "high number of execs think more regulation is necessary." Third surprise: "India has more platinum energy efficient buildings than US has".

Many companies look for globalization although at first blush that may be counter-intuitive to bottom line. Dupont looks for international standardization and calls for the most stringent standards to be applied unilaterally. They believe that intelligence in utilization will have positive financial impact and drive meaningful profit. And while globalization may make it difficult for applying good standards to business, as it increases there are increased opportunities for business.

i wonder what the wrong side of history is, or is this phrase just meant to be a diffuse threat for those not sharing your opinion?

anton

> Economists have proven that free trade benefits all participating nations.

I do agree with you (though I have no proof), and would like to add that of the past 2 recessions, economists have predicted all 9 of them...

Economists have proven that free trade benefits all participating nations. I know this because I studied free trade and wrote a paper on it, while in college.
Since India opened up its economy, it has been growing very fast. Now it is growing at about 9% p.a. In India wages have gone up. Everyone is making more money, including the poor.
I grew up in 4 different countries, and studied and worked in 3 different countries. So I have first hand knowledge about the global economy.

Yes - in theory everything is good. The practical side however appears very different (see my other post about el g. shelling prawns which is just one example).

I don´t doubt, that it´s been good for India or other countries to "open up", I also don´t doubt that all people in the world have the right to get a piece of the (money-) cake, nobody should live in poverty in the 21st century.

A country like Singapore has greatly benefited from being part of the global economy. Living standards are similar to America, and wages are at approximately 60% of USA. The pre-university education system is British, with A Levels and O levels, turning out a well educated workforce.
Globalization is good and happening, and it cannot be stopped. As I said before, those nations who disagree with this will find themselves on the wrong side of history.

If you were owning a company, if you invested lots of time and money to invent something and now comes the Globalization where other countries just copy you invention and label it with your name for less than half of the price - would you still say "globalization is good"? In theory and on the papers and statistics it does look good, but it has drawbacks also - massive ones - that shouldn´t be put aside. As I said before, it´s not only black and white.

Markus

As a MBA, I have studied competitive strategy. There are two generic strategies a company can follow according to one article I read. One is a generic cost leadership strategy, and the other is a generic differentiation strategy. Companies that follow a cost leadership strategy in the West will often find themselves undercut by competitors from developing nations. Companies in the West that follow a differentiation strategy will have greater chances of profiting in the global economy.

There is also another important factor that I can think of: quality. Companies that make high quality products, like the Japanese companies will find themselves successfully competing in the global economy.

Globalization is destabilizing, and companies will have to adapt and change to succeed in a global economy. Companies will need to focus on their core competency, and outsource or sell of those areas of business in which they do not have deep expertize. The outsourcing can be done within or outside of the company's nation. Increasingly companies will become international with many parts of its business outsourced to other countries.

Thinking of how to solve your mentioned problem: countries should sign free trade agreements with other countries, along with treaties that protect intellectual property. While there are hurdles to cleared, I believe that globalization will accelerate in the near future.

Al Lal

www.olap.wetpaint.com

> Globalization is not a good thing, never was and never will

funniest thing I've ever read on a global internet forum...

just keep it up!

> While currently the West is dominating the global economy, there will be a shift in the late 21st century.

if it would be so simple... most of the people who thought they see into the future, proved to be wrong (just think of Marx). Just read the book Trust of Francis Fukuyama and you'll undestand more

The future is difficult to predict because we all have free will. There are no scientific laws of history.

However I believe that by predicting the future, you can actually change the future. As the people in Asia come to believe in a good economic future, they will work to make it happen.

The West will continue to do well economically, but Asia will catch up to the West. In particular, China and India will become major players in the global economy.

I believe that the 22nd century will be good both for the West and the East. There will be economic prosperity.

I am not convinced that the Middle East, and Africa will do as well. I do not have direct knowledge of these regions of the world, so am not really qualified to argue my position.

Al Lal

www.olap.wetpaint.com


funniest thing I've ever read on a global internet forum... 
just keep it up! 
ec

Well, I think we both have a different concept of the term "globalization". Most people refering to globalization only talk about globalized economy and neo-liberal policies.

But yes, I know it sounds like I´m a hypocrite, and probably I am, but I'm not the usual "rich anarcho-communist green liberal hippie" who goes to G8 mettings to riot, I need to gain my living.

That's one thing, the other is defend something that can't be defended when you see at first sight that globalization doesn't work.

Or how do you tell those little farmers that are immigrating to the US that they have a world of opportunities open when they are just a joke competting with cheap products from the farming giants?

Of course NAFTA has brought some good things, but in the long run it has hurt more

And considering the increasing income inequality in most first world countries I still think globalization is a bad thing for all. It's the same as always, the elite trying to get richer at the expenses of other, but this time they're just being more cynical

Edited by: Ramiro Escamilla on Feb 18, 2008 3:28 PM

> Everyone is making more money, including the poor.

Pray tell us how the poor end up making more money and if they are how come you call them poor!

I think you should just copy & paste your CV as every post of yours has a little info about yourself like the one below.

> I grew up in 4 different countries, and studied and worked in 3 different countries. So I have first hand knowledge about the global economy.

There are 180 odd countries!

Just look at the effects of the sub-prime crisis in the US affecting the whole world before you go on and on on globalisation, this is just one example of the ill-effects of "globalisation". FYI the British rule of India was also part of their "globalisation".

Why can't the poor make more money, and still be poor? They are less poor. India definitely has benefited from globalization in the recent past. What is important is to look to the future and not to the past. You are backward looking. While there has been war and colonization in the past, in the future there will be fewer such things. You are also obviously not knowledgeable about economics.

Free trade and globalization will succeed, despite backward people like you; history will prove me right.

Al Lal

www.olap.wetpaint.com

Edited by: Abhinav Lal on Feb 19, 2008 6:06 AM

> Since India opened up its economy, it has been growing very fast. Now it is growing at about 9% p.a. In India wages have gone up. Everyone is making more money, including the poor.

Try to import some textile like SDN T-Shirts into India and you will realize that India hasn't opened that much. The Community Day T-Shirts for Bangalore we sourced in India this year. Small proof, that not totally opening up was beneficial for India.

Linguist Noam Chomsky calls the term Globalization propaganda: [propaganda|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization#Anti-globalization_.28mundialism.29]

"The dominant propaganda systems have appropriated the term "globalization" to refer to the specific version of international economic integration that they favor, which privileges the rights of investors and lenders, those of people being incidental. In accord with this usage, those who favor a different form of international integration, which privileges the rights of human beings, become "anti-globalist." This is simply vulgar propaganda, like the term "anti-Soviet" used by the most disgusting commissars to refer to dissidents. It is not only vulgar, but idiotic. Take the World Social Forum, called "anti-globalization" in the propaganda system -- which happens to include the media, the educated classes, etc., with rare exceptions. The WSF is a paradigm example of globalization. It is a gathering of huge numbers of people from all over the world, from just about every corner of life one can think of, apart from the extremely narrow highly privileged elites who meet at the competing World Economic Forum, and are called "pro-globalization" by the propaganda system. An observer watching this farce from Mars would collapse in hysterical laughter at the antics of the educated classes."

Just to give this discussion a different perspective, Mark.

LOL Isn't this a paradox? and you still haven't said how they are making more money...

> Why can't the poor make more money, and still be poor? They are less poor.

>India definitely has benefited from globalization in the recent past.

India is not the only nation in the world. If your argument that globalisation is good for all then it should be good for the whole world and not just one country.

> What is important is to look to the future and not to the past.

I am not sure how you can "look" either ways but lessons should be learnt from the past to define and plan your future, not just keep "looking" till your eyes get tired!

> You are backward looking.

Yes I do look back sometimes, especially when I am walking with my wife to ensure no lunatic is stalking us....

> While there has been war and colonization in the past, in the future there will be fewer such things.

Just tell that to the people of Iraq.......and the volatile middle east.

> You are also obviously not knowledgeable about economics.

No I am not but I definitely know about "globalisation".

> Free trade and globalization will succeed, despite backward people like you; history will prove me right.

So it is now "Free trade and globalization" succeeding but they need not benefit the people?

>history will prove me right

So when are you aiming for the Nobel?

For your benefit, here's an extract from wikipedia......

Shift from manufacturing to service work: The low cost of offshore workers have enticed corporations to move production to foreign countries. The laid off unskilled workers are forced into the service sector where wages and benefits are low, but turnover is high. This has contributed to the widening economic gap between skilled and unskilled workers. The loss of these jobs has also contributed greatly to the slow decline of the middle class which is a major factor in the increasing economic inequality in the United States. Families that were once part of the middle class are forced into lower positions by massive layoffs and outsourcing to another country. This also means that people in the lower class have a much harder time climbing out of poverty because of the absence of the middle class as a stepping stone.

I hope the likes of you, who blow their lid off at one critical response, are not actively involved in offshoring/outsourcing in India because that will be counter-productive...history will prove me right on this!

Hi Mark,

I couldn't resist. Noam Chomsky used to be a linguist, but now is a the extreme left firebrand going from college to college and fighting every practical person he can find as his opponent. I drank his linguistics in college too, but now put him next to Galloway, Dershowitz, and a few others who are very skilled in rhetoric.

The biggest impact I see for SAP is this:

1.5802 EUR/USD (http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=EURUSD=X), but you can't update your nCURR tables with that too often

greg

Mark F -

never mind ...

... don't want to start any "conflagrations" ...

Best

djh

Edited by: David Halitsky on Mar 31, 2008 9:14 PM

> greg misiorek wrote:

> ...but you can't update your nCURR tables with that too often

No need to. The system throws WF5216 about recessions from "nCURR" tables...

Nothing like a little bit of end-user-training to kick-start the economy...

Cheers,

Julius

Hi Dave and Mark,

Please can we have a discussion on Chomsky around the semiotics of your average OSS responses?

Regards (from a Commercial Laissez-faire perspective)

Gareth

Quick post script, the following from Wikipaedia on Noam...

"Much of the lavish praise heaped on his work is, we believe, driven by uncritical acceptance (often by nonlinguists) of claims and promises made during the early years of his academic activity; the claims have by now largely proved wrong or without real content, and the promises have gone unfilled." (Robert D. Levine and Paul M. Postal. A Corrupted Linguistics. Pages 203-32 In The Anti-Chomsky Reader (2004) Peter Collier and David Horowitz, editors. Encounter Books. )

I did a semester of semiotics during my Uni days (as I thought it would round out my otherwise Engineering bent mind-set) and can say that some of the linguists also engaged in uncritical acceptance.

Edited by: Gareth Ellem on Apr 1, 2008 9:01 AM

question belongs in the coffee corner IMHO.

Moved by: Moderator on Jan 28, 2008 8:56 AM

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