Q&A at Community Day

[Former Member]

At Community Day Las Vegas, SAP executives (Peter Graf, Elvira.., Zia Yusuf and Mark Y) took questions from the audience. Time was over before I could summon enough courage to ask for the mike and put my question to them. Thence I put it here - in the hope someone will take the bait..

- When SAP builds a new product, or enhances functionality of an existing one, how do they decide whether it is to be built in J2EE stack or in ABAP stack (eg in BI, CRM and other products there is a mix of components on either - how do they decide what should be built where). Is this a technical decision, or guided by an overall platform or stack strategy (or do they do it wild-west style - toss a coin)?

- Has there been any internal discussion in SAP about component X or Y being better off had it been in ABAP instead of J2EE (or vice-versa), post-facto? Or are SAP people as clueless as us as to the rationale for components being developed in one or other technology?

And lastly

- Would some top level executive from SAP confirm (or deny) whether the clock is ticking for ABAP?

[darren_hague]

Hi Ajay,

As luck would have it, Mark Finnern saw your post here and asked the question for you. You can see the response in a video here: <a href="/people/community.user/blog/2007/10/16/community-day-munich-meet-the-veepe-the-town-hall Day Munich Meet the Veepe, the Town Hall</a>

All the best,

Darren

[Former Member]

Thanks Darren, and thanks very much Mark!!

In all honesty, Thomas Jung's answer was more meaningful (to me) than the one in the 'ask the veep' session.

For whatever reason, I have a quite different recollection of how the QA went - a reproduction of what I remember is here -<a href="https://wiki.sdn.sap.com/wiki/display/Community/Askedtheveep+%28almost%29...">asked the veep (almost)</a>.

[Former Member]

Very funny - but its hard to view the slides in Wiki!

[Former Member]

Yes, the fun is almost labored in wiki; I do have the PPT but no place to host it.

[thomas_jung]

Well I am a far cry from a top level executive, but lets see if I can't offer some information. First, here is a quote from Mark Twain that I use to start some of ABAP presentations on this very topic:

"The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated"

The simple fact is that ABAP remains an excellent language for building business logic. With that fact in hand, SAP does a little more study than a coin toss when it decides what language to base a software offering in. There are lots of factors such as "what integration is necessary", "where is the data today", "what skill sets do our resources have available".

The other factor is that ABAP is more open today. We can create standards based services in ABAP just as easily as any other language. So for some one wanting to consume SAP's business services, they need not care that they were developed in ABAP.

Another clear advantage to business logic in ABAP is the Enhancement Framework. This is a very powerful tool for customers and partners to extend the existing system.

The general rule on UI follows what has been described in this thread already. Systems that currently ABAP based (mostly the core business suite - ERP, SRM, PLM, etc) will remain ABAP for the business logic and their new UIs will be done in Web Dynpro ABAP. These new UIs and the underlying Enterprise Services will be delivered to the Business Suite via Enhancement Packages (Enhancement Package 2 for ERP is currently in Ramp-Up). The Enhancement Packages for ERP are scheduled to come out at roughly twice a year.

Other tools in the offering that are already heavily Java Based (Portal for instance) will get Web Dynpro Java UIs. However using tools like the NetWeaver Business Client and the NetWeaver Portal - you can use Portal Eventing to combine Web Dynpro ABAP and Java in the same page and allow them to interact. Also regardless of where the business logic is written - if it is service enabled, it can be consumed from just about anywhere. This is the reason why we tell customers and partners to look at their skill sets as a primary factor of what technology they should use. I have described what SAP's guidelines are, but thanks to advances in openness, everyone need not follow that same path.

Finally there were some questions about the new NetWeaver Business Client and Enterpirse Portal Client being re-redone in .Net. Well that is only partially accurate. It isn't that we have abondoned Adobe Apollo (AIR) for .Net. There will be two flavors of the NWBC, much like there are multiple flavors of the SAPGui today. The Windows version of the NWBC (not written in .Net really - mostly C++ like the SAPGui) has a version that was done first (largely because AIR is still so new and in Beta). We are working on the AIR version internally still.

Our goal is to be open to all the major players without tieing to anyone one of them too closely. This is the whole point of Web Dynpro; to abstract the actual rendering technology to allow for flexibility moving forward. This is why we can add Windows-based, Flex-Based or AIR-based clients on the front of Web Dynpro. If you have seen the Flash Islands or Silverlight Islands - then you also have a feel of how we can intermix other UI technologies without becomming dependant on any one of them.

[Former Member]

This gives some pointers and good info about where ABAP is though it doesn't answer the question. Or maybe the question wasn't right.

Probably the question should be

- Is the decision to build a component in one or other an obvious one to make? And if it is not obvious, is there a preferred choice between the two (all things being equal - so to say).

But this was all good info from everyone here in this thread.

Most of the times the difference between a marketable or in-demand skill and a skill of declining demand is just a matter of time-period - and that time-period is reducing by the day as product/release life-cycle reduces. As SAP technology workers sooner we get clued in to where SAP is going, better it is for us.

eg I spent quite a bit of effort learning SEM-CPM on my own assuming balanced scorecard and related stuff would be the next thing business management would adopt - which probably they are, but SEM-CPM is not really that successful, and is now being phased out - replaced by the product SAP bought recently. Maybe the same time would have been better spent mastering say web-dynpro (or reading bedtime stories to my kids) had I known how things are moving for that product.

Anyway, at least with SDN I did get to know (about SEM-CPM - through a blog, and the info in this thread for example), so can't complain.

[suresh_datti]

On a similar note, there is an interesting <a href="http://www.sapinsideronline.com/archive/volume_08_(2007)/issue_04_(october-december)/v8i4a13.cfm">article</a> in the latest issue of the

<a href="http://www.sapinsideronline.com/">SAP insider</a>

~Suresh

[suresh_datti]

Ajay,

In fact, <a href="https://www.sdn.sap.comhttp://www.sdn.sap.comhttp://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/wiki?path=/display/profile/harald%2breiter">harald Reiter</a> did ask a Video Question about the WedDynpro ABAP/Java dilemma.. & got a pretty diplomatic answer that didn't really clear the con'fusion'! .. as we keep repeatedly hearing from diff sources, both the technologies would be suppoted & it is a matter of choice for the customer 'DEPENDING' on the available skillset, requirements, etc.. but like both the Chris's have mentioned above, some of the WebDynpro Java ESS apps are being re-written in WebDynpro ABAP....the ESS apps in Travel Management have already released via the Enhancement Package 2.. I doubt if we can get a confirmation /denial..

~Suresh

P.S. It was nice meeting you at Teched

[Former Member]

Yeap - I did ask a video question about what tools to use when it comes to custom development and as Suresh stated correctly I got a diplomatic answer. I actually did not expect more then that anyway - those type of questions have been asked many times before - anybody remember the first SDN get together at SAP Labs in Palo Alto?

I did get something valuable out of my question - and I am glad I got the opportunity to ask it at TechEd - and that is that SAP is not going to develop applications in BSP anymore.

That does not mean they will take BSP away and I am pretty sure that there are lots of loyal followers out there that love BSP but for me 'Less is more!'.

I help clients with vendor and solution selections and as a project manager also with tool selections as most companies I worked with clearly define the tools that developers have to use before a project starts.

Looking at the toolshed today it looks like it gets bigger and bigger with new modeling tools and frameworks introduced - so plenty of room to get confused in the future and make the deciscion process even harder.

I hope you find the time to ask this question via video and hopefully it gets selected - would love to hear the answer from this panel of executives.

Harald

[ChrisSolomon]

"Would some top level executive from SAP confirm (or deny) whether the clock is ticking for ABAP? "

My opinion...very much to the contrary. Yes, wayyyyy back in 2001 or so when SAP made the announcment to a full on push to Java, lots of folks, especially ABAPpers got nervous (remember how many articles,books,etc have been written for ABAPpers to move to Java more easily? and many of them sprang up very quickly at that time). Well, then there was the whole story that came to pass where Microsoft was looking keenly to purchase SAP. In the end, both seemed to say "our technologies don't mesh well so not right now" and there was an amicable split. Think about it...it would look mighty strange for Microsoft to buy up a very Java-centric company at that time (they were then just pushing .Net big time). Now, from folks I talked to "on the inside", they said that at that very point, a LOT of work began to yank Java out of everything SAP and get it back to a more "Microsoft friendly" state...so to speak (for example, reworking the WAS to a different kernal removing the Java bits from where possible). Also, you saw the nice "partnership" come around the same time as Microsoft and SAP developed (and continue to) "Duet". Fast forward (a short time?) to now, and you see this (strange?) push from SAP again to move everything towards WebDynpro for ABAP (in fact the ESS business package is being retooled to it!). Sooooooo for my view on this....personally....I think SAP is setting itself back up for another move from Microsoft (and yes, wouldn't Oracle/Larry Ellison just crap themselves over that! haha). Again....just my speculation....or day-dreaming...or whatever. But anyways....no, I don't think ABAP is going anywhere anytime soon.

[Former Member]

To expand on Christopher's reply, until SAP decides to move its back end business applications such as ERP, CRM, SRM, etc off of the ABAP stack, ABAP will be alive and kicking. Even if SAP makes a move to front end applications on Java (which as Christopher has mentioned is reversing itself) all of the backend business functionality still has to be accessed using ABAP language.

Based on some of the sessions that I attended in Las Vegas, I heard mention that with ERP 6.0, SAP is releasing enhancement packages. Each of those enhancement packages will contain old Dynpro based applications re-written as ABAP Web Dynpro. I am not sure of the release schedule and which applications are part of which enhancement package, but I am sure someone at SAP has that information. And don't get worried, the old applications will still exist.

Also, on the Microsoft note, I found out something else very interesting. If I remember correctly, when SAP announced project Muse, they were developing a new client application that supposedly was based on Adobe Flash. As I found out this year in Las Vegas, the new Netweaver Business Client and Enterprise Portal Client (which were pare of the original project Muse) were re-done in .Net. At least that was my impression. Did anyone else catch on to this?

Best Regards,

Chris H.

[marilyn_pratt]

We certainly are eager to have your questions. If you have a webcam or video camera please grab it and go to <a href="http://www.kyte.tv/ask_an_sap_exec">http://www.kyte.tv/ask_an_sap_exec</a>.

This is a way of getting your question out there to our execs as they will be looking at this channel.

Marilyn

[former_member374]

Hi Ajay,

What a missed opportunity. Would have been great to hear you ask these questions.

I will take these with to be asked at the Townhall at the <a href="https://www.sdn.sap.comhttp://www.sdn.sap.comhttp://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/communityday">Community Day</a> in Munich.

You can reach even higher, by asking these questions on kyte.tv and if selected they will be shown to be answered by Henning and Klaus at the end of the keynote.

Marilyn will post a blog about it soon, Mark.

[former_member181923]

Ajay -

I had thought of responding before to your "clock-is-ticking" question and held-off.

But since you've asked it again, I'd like to state my own opinion that the question is way overly-dramatic - out of touch with the "real world of IT" which, for better or worse, still includes real people as part of the over-all "machine" we're still trying to learn how to orchestrate.

Case in point:

In 2001, SAP was selected over Oracle to replace a very-very-very-very large proprietary system written in a special version of ISAM (the precursor to VSAM) that had been "goosed" for performance by all kinds of assembler fast-paths.

This was an "emergency" system - the old-timers were retiring and everyone felt that pretty darn soon, everything was just gonna stop or fall apart.

Well, it's now 2007, and a few months ago, I got a call from the client asking if I'd be willing to come on board as a maintenance programmer to keep the old stuff running through 2014.

Let's see ... 2014 - 1972 = 42 years.

See what I'm driving at here ?

Regards

djh

[Former Member]

David,

In the context of your post - my question would have been to IBM - as to whether the clock is ticking for ISAM for them (ie is IBM phasing it out as a DBMS/File-system) as opposed to it being phased out from customers' site.

As it is, ISAM, or IMS, or many other such, are less and less prevalent today, and many of ISAM people did reskill themselves on other stuff to keep a job.

Similarly SAP may be inclining to move to JAVA as a platform to build everything new, in which case it should explicitly state the same at some point. People with an investment in ABAP should get a fair time to reskill/adjust themselves to changing reality.

Also, the other question was out of curiousity - how do they figure out what component goes where - Java Vs ABAP.

[KjetilKilhavn]

> Let's see ... 2014 - 1972 = 42 years.

>

> See what I'm driving at here ?

>

42... Indeed!

[former_member181923]

You scared me there, Kjetil - I thought I had subtracted wrong - I usually do.

Did I this time? I don't think so cause I double-checked, but it usually takes me three times to get anything right - that's why I love RAD, JAD, and ExtremeCoding.

Anyway - yeah - I'm not exaggerating - the system that SAP was supposed to replace came on-line around 1972. The client in this case (like the NY Times and many others I've worked at) went to ISAM a little too early, before IBM realized they virtually had to come out with VSAM.

So my point is, even if SAP were not "re-invigorating" their commitment to ABAP (which is what many posts here suggest), ABAP'ers will have work for a long long time.

Regards

djh

[KjetilKilhavn]

> You scared me there, Kjetil - I thought I had subtracted wrong - I usually do.

> Did I this time? I don't think so cause I double-checked, but it usually takes me three times

> to get anything right - that's why I love RAD, JAD, and ExtremeCoding.

>

Sorry, I didn't mean to scare you 😮

Just a flashback to the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy 8-)

<i>Message was edited by Kjetil Kilhavn:</i>

And no, I am not worried about lack of work for ABAP developers either. Even less so after realising that SAP has the same problem as everyone else: when the original developer is no longer around you try to avoid touching Stuff That Just Works(tm).

[Former Member]

Hi Ajay,

Good question. Lets c the response from the experts and also from the insiders.

Me too eagarly waiting to read the response.

regards

Vinodh.