Active Contributor Award

[Former Member]

Just curious to know on what criteria the Active Contributor Awards (Gold - Silver - Bronze) are given in SDN.

any idea?

[Former Member]

Hi All,

Before going into the core part of whether you need a point system or not, i want to divide the

contributors into three categories, the 'Newbies', the Experienced' & the 'Experts' and analyse their

contribution to SCN.I make it so simple and from the perspective of the contributors mind

because management perspective was dealt well by Julius.

The Newbies: Novice consultants who are fresh from their training and fresh to the job

without any Realtime experience.These category people expect to be spoonfed because they

want to be cautious on every step they do on the system else they have to face the

consequence from their seniors.These people never worry about

the point system rather they

need answers immediately or need solved problems or readymade codes.They offer full ponits

when you spoonfeed them.They make 80% question generators in the forum .

So this category of people don't need ponit system rather they need solution immediately.The main

reason for the forum to be filled with redundant data is because of their lazyness or unaware

of the Rules and regulations of the forum.

When you check the registration date of newbies it will be Current Year or Current Year-1.

The Experienced: The Newbies who after gaining experience in their module probably after 2 years

will be experts in their own module because of their realtime experience.These people call

themselves experts and want to prove their mettle in the forum.Their enthusiasm grow day by

day like the feeling of playing with a Playstation or Nintendo and this drives them to the bad

part of the forum 'Ponit gaming system' or using 'Cheat Codes'.I guess about 20% of this

category people are taking the darkside driven by the ponit system.

So this category of people need the ponits so badly.

This reason makes them attend any kind of queries whether they knew or not they try to bring

in all their prowess in searching and answers with 'farm links' or 'copy-pasting' etc.

And when you see the registration date of this set it will be Current Year-2 or 3

The Experts: As per the saying 'too much of sugar bitters',after gaining ponits to some level

and their enthusiasm withers they dont concentrate on the ponits rather become more

matured and responsible.This is because of strict moderation level by moderators who

takes care of the respective modules.Inspired by the moderators job,people tend to become

more responsible.And also their relation with SCN would have gone past 3 years which will

give a feeling of being at 'Home' and they are responsible to make it clean.

So this category people too don't need ponits rather they are responsible for the well being in

the forum.

The main concern is about the middle category where major darkside happenings are taking place.

+ Note:I am talking about only a part of the contributors who are responsible for this and others who come

under this category and who are genuine contributors please apologize. +

Moderators take care of the Novice category with their strict moderation policy as it mainly

deals with basic queries and with the abuse reports they make the forum clean. But the problem

in the second category mainly deals with the quality of solution,so it is the responsibility of each

and every contributor in the forum.In this case if there is a ponit system everyone will fight

for the ponits and only the quantity of solutions increase, maybe some redundant solutions,

maybe some out of context solutions,maybe some copy-pasted or copyrighted..

Only the middle category needs the ponits system and that too because of their enthusiasm

in contributing to the forum. My ponit is Ponits system brings in competition rather there are other

ways to boost their enthusiasm without ponit system. If there is a 'Quality Contributor'

medal like the 'Active Contributor' combined with PK's method of 'Thumbs Up' for a quality

answer then hopefully contributors try to give quality answers. More importantly the profile

should show only the medals not the ponits which is calculated only in the background to

decide the medal.

My 2￥

~Andrew

Edited by: Andrew J on Dec 14, 2010 7:39 PM

[marilyn_pratt]

Thanks for this analysis Andrew and to all here contributing to a productive conversation (despite the sometimes redundancies) and luckily it isn't just about consensus but also about dialogue and different viewpoints which can lead to a smarter conclusion than just a lot of smart views that sometimes lead to a somewhat "dumb" consensus (see [Kathy Sierra |http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2007/01/the_dumbness_of.html]on this subject).

Andrew outlines the user-types and does a great job of describing the motivations and behaviors. I think everyone here agrees with the goal of Quality Contributors (as does our entire collaboration and content team, although I'm just one visible mouth here at the moment- while all eyes and ears glued). So first, we moved from focus on just top contributors to active contributors (a behind the scene factoid is that I once years ago got my hand slapped and justifiably for capturing Rich H. going over the 20K mark and highlighting it....I got my blog banned and it was the "right" thing too, because we don't just celebrate po-ints). In order to reach Quality Contributors we must realize that the mechanisms have to be in place to measure the quality. They aren't yet. That is what our team is dedicated to do.

That means massive changes in the system. Rankings, ratings, moderator education, platform overhauls, reporting systems, moderator systems, migration and yes, the evil word, funding. Managements need to see results. They need metrics and measures. They need quick easy numbers. They need to see return on investment in change. Quality generation is a team sport which requires: dedication, time, patience, incredible hard work, time, persistence, intelligence, time, consistency, changes, cooperation, time, experience, expertise, time. Get the recurring theme? I believe it IS an evolution and the proof is the incredible quality of the conversation here, in the Coffee Corner, where I see some of the smartest rants in the industry, that have evolved over time in this community, despite the comings and goings of its many members. This isn't a decline from some "days of community glory", it is a constant trajectory forward as new Quality voices emerge while some, sadly do depart.

Now, that being said, we need not only groundswell (which we have here). We need a platform to be built that will accommodate, incorporate, synthesis and support the type of community that best serves you, the people (a changing, evolving demographic). And we need a system, measurable, clear, easy to understand that measures the success of the participation on that infrastructure (yep to show management). Otherwise we are putting "icing on a mud pie" or "lipstick on a pig" as some of my countrypeople say in our south.

When I said the points system is here to stay. I didn't say the system is. I hope the understanding is that we are working on massive change which takes time. Stay tuned.

[Former Member]

Hi Marylin,

Can we move this to the Coffee Corner as well.

It is way over due, but probably also not useful enough.

At least we can laugh a bit....

Cheers,¨

Julius

[Former Member]

Changing to a new system or an improved system is different from deactivating the existing system. It sounds like our inability to manage the system. I strongly believe that we have brilliant people in this forum who can suggest so many alternatives if this issue is taken up seriously.

Deactivating the point system should reduce the noise but not the activity. If we lose active contributors, it results in decrease in the number of threads (good threads also). Indirectly we will also lose active visitors (who visit frequently for learning and contribute occassionally). More people will resort to using the search option for their queries instead of raising threads (good and interesting issues also).

It is a very good idea to try the deactivation of point system on a trial basis. But, we should compare the activity level of the top contributors (may be top 50 in that forum) before and after the deactivation of point system.

In my opinion, if the display of points and posts (in the threads) is stopped, it may reduce the noise. Members should be allowed to check their points as it is available now. Since nobody knows about the points of other members, this may avoid competition among members for gaining more and more points. I agree, most of the real contributors least bother about gaining points, but they do bother about spending more time in forums just to help others.

[pokrakam]

Those who know me already know my views: I'm all for a point-free trial.

In some ways it reminds me about UK politics: One of the hot topics over here is that hospitals have become so obsessed with chasing number targets that patient care is suffering. Doctors spend less time with patients, but who cares whether patients get better, it's performance figures above all else.

That is the problem with incentives that are not directly related to the main goal: folks start to focus more on the incentive than that which they are actually supposed to incentivise.

And this is how some people view points - often encouraged by the company they work for. I have to sadly agree with some of the sentiment expressed in this thread about being less motivated to take time and compose a thought-out response to a particular problem when parrot responses seem to be the order of the day.

Incentives are all good and well, but what we need to do is find a better way to recognise QUALITY.

[JPReyes]

I have to agree with all of you... I was a big fan of the p.oints system, but having tasted the advantages and disadvantages, I think we might be better off without them.

As mike said, the main goal should be to recognize quality rather than quantity.

Looking forward to see the results of the pilot.

Regards

Juan

[OttoGold]

firstly: I love how these innocent threads become a ground for fancy flame wars

secondly: I don´t think we will ever get rid of the ponits systems. My wish is to objectify the "rew-ard". Less points in the hands of the people who ask (maybe something like 1,2,3 points to be awarded) and more to be decided by a common good. Something like points for votes (+1 point for dozen votes for example), points for visits (could be abused, but still more objective than hat we have now) or something similar...

I don´t understand how can you expect a revolution? It´s not gonna happen. This is SAP, ladies and gentlemen. Why don´t you suggest an evolution rather than a revolution? In my opinion it would have better change.

Don´t be sad, we can still like SCN as it is, we only contribute less and less:))) Have a nice day, everybody,

Otto

[Former Member]

> firstly: I love how these innocent threads become a ground for fancy flame wars
> secondly: I don´t think we will ever get rid of the ponits systems. My wish is to objectify the "rew-ard". Less points in the hands of the people who ask (maybe something like 1,2,3 points to be awarded) and more to be decided by a common good. Something like points for votes (+1 point for dozen votes for example), points for visits (could be abused, but still more objective than hat we have now) or something similar...
> I don´t understand how can you expect a revolution? It´s not gonna happen. This is SAP, ladies and gentlemen. Why don´t you suggest an evolution rather than a revolution? In my opinion it would have better change.
> Don´t be sad, we can still like SCN as it is, we only contribute less and less:))) Have a nice day, everybody,
> Otto

Care to explain to me where you see a 'fancy flamewar' ??

As it is, we have suggested alternatives to the ponits-systems ad nauseam - see The Thread over in the Suggestions-forum. I think, the times we were actively 'exspecting' things, are over.

Actually, the evident lack of communication from SCN to the community is encouraging neither r/evolution.

@Thomas: why, thank you ... that still leaves the issue with the stamina, you know??

[marilyn_pratt]

Quality is the main concern of our SCN Team and has always been. Please see [Michael Schwandt's series of blogs |http://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/scn/weblogs?blog=/pub/u/66] [original link is broken] [original link is broken]; to understand the evolution of changes made to the platform. You asked we listened, and advocated, and championed ideas that are quality focused. Not only in the topic of forums but on all content assets on the website.

We constantly entertain conversations around improving the recognition system and the point system. If anyone has a concrete proposal for an alternate system for measuring and exposing value in the community, it would clearly be considered by SCN management.

[Idea place |http://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/scn/idea-place]would be a good area to start this concrete suggestions for measuring quality. (Look under link for SC[SCN Idea Area|https://ideas.sap.com/community/community_and_services/sapcommunitynetwork] )

[Former Member]

HI Marylin,

Your formatting is not compatibible with the migrated content. I also lost a lot of content in the security area which I noticed because people asked about it.

For sure people are very interested in what you said, but I gues they just dont believe that anything will happen.

I migh be wrong though.

Cheers,

Julius

[Former Member]

[Platinum|http://www.berchtesgadener-land.com/www/live/wwwdom/pspic/image/29/almabtrieb4cb42dc2a1b61.jpg]

[Gold|http://www.corlurgansalers.com/assets/images/Saleers_Champion_519_Brian_Halton_1_.jpg]

[Silver|http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2556/3688474252_44f1c1d426_o.jpg]

[Bronze (points badger)|http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/autumnwatch/2009/10/animals_of_the_witching_hour.html]

Sorry, but you did ask this in the Coffee Corner...

[ThomasZloch]

[>10K|http://www.ariva.de/fette_kuh_a247365]

[lazy|http://data.motor-talk.de/data/galleries/0/61/5864/29006283/ural-und-kuh-4533936645012383562.jpg]

[moderator|http://picture.yatego.com/images/490876ae9cde65.5/Polizeikuh.jpg]

[faking CV|http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7AbblvASr9s/S_wAeZfLaLI/AAAAAAAAAQU/sabiNirtSjo/s640/Kuh.jpg]

[guestified|http://www.feuerwehr-weblog.de/stefan/kuh.jpg]

[OttoGold]

Devilish Julius! ROFL

[OttoGold]

Devilish Thomas! ROFL

[Former Member]

Here also a rare [Guestified Mentor|http://beverlys.net/photos/2008/VivBday/MadCow15.jpg]

[suresh_datti]

That would be me Julius, I'm not active these days..

You never lose an opportunity! have fun as always.

~Suresh

[Former Member]

That you still have some time for Coffee Corner makes you medium-rare.

Enjoy the weekend!

Julius

[Former Member]

LOL :=) :>D

[former_member184657]

O Lordy lord. I almost died laughing.

What a perfect end to a [hectic|http://www.google.co.in/imgres?imgurl=http://farm1.static.flickr.com/88/248201473_0d6f3ea81a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://robinadr.com/2007/09/melting_cow&usg=__Ql_PqUnzS4qSsTH82N4LNJwrXys=&h=379&w=500&sz=156&hl=en&start=181&zoom=1&tbnid=lP3a761NFnf0KM:&tbnh=159&tbnw=212&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcow%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1440%26bih%3D820%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C5109&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=319&vpy=119&dur=125&hovh=195&hovw=258&tx=175&ty=100&ei=CzL5TIOQEMH58AbnmODhCQ&oei=ijD5TN_SBpGisQOkoZTdAg&esq=22&page=8&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:181&biw=1440&bih=820] week.

pk

[marilyn_pratt]

you got me laughing too. But since I'm here in Bangalore I thought of how there are cultural differences in how we view our contributors. These two videos emphasize the difference between cultures. I'll let you decide which has higher value.

Which locations produce which kinds of contributors? You tell me. Is it: [East|http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ40USt7yAU] vs. [West|http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmkj5gq1cQU]?

Me personally? I think there is too much of the bullishness in the second approach.

Hope those that represent that kind of thinking are not going to take offense.

The point system and recognition system ARE here to stay.

Have a good weekend.

Grannimari from somewhere in Bangalore

Edited by: Marilyn Pratt on Dec 9, 2010 2:21 PM to correct dreadful grammar. Incendiary words to be discussed further

[Former Member]

Thanks for fixing the links. The comments from the British reporter are funny and India is indeed a beautifull country. I live in a village in the Swiss Alps and believe in the birds and the bees, so luckily do not need to decide between "east vs. west" scenarion, have friends in both and can take the best parts of both as I am free to do so. Phew...!

The point system and recognition system IS here to stay.

This is different as it has an "all or nothing" flavour to it for me to "take it or leave it". Is it an authorative statement without further discussion?

If that is true, then of course I am going to say goodbye.

Cheers,

Julius

Edited by: Julius Bussche on Dec 4, 2010 1:18 PM

[jurjen_heeck]

> The point system and recognition system IS here to stay.
This is different as it has an "all or nothing" flavour to it for me to "take it or leave it". Is it an authorative statement without further discussion?
If that is true, then of course I am going to say goodbye.

Thart would be sad but I would understand it.

I think 'award systems' for voluntary forum contributions should never have any monetary value at all. What is wrong with plain human recognition?

Obviously SCN points have crossed the monetary boundary a long time ago. In my opinion this situation only boosts the quantity of posts, not the quality. It has stopped me from contributing on many occasions because I feared my advice would drown in the flood of answers posted just for giving an answer and hoping for points.

I've received news (see: ) that there may be a pilot in netweaver security disabling the point system in that forum. Please do! I hope that will at least stop people posting 'solutions' that deteriorate system security but rid OP of the symptoms he/she asked about.

And the amount of slightly rephrased "me too's".

And answers from points gamers that have ony read the first three words of a question.

I would love to see the amount of replies given in that forum go down by at least 50%. I might even start reading whole threads again if that happens. And no, I do not think less problems will be solved, on the contrary.

Jurjen

P.S. Funny to think how making SCN pointless would make it more usefull

[Former Member]

>

> 
> I would love to see the amount of replies given in that forum go down by at least 50%. I might even start reading whole threads again if that happens. And no, I do not think less problems will be solved, on the contrary.
> 
> Jurjen
> 
> P.S. Funny to think how making SCN pointless would make it more usefull 

Likewise. It has got to the point now where I am contributing less and less because I lose the motivation to trawl through posts of partial or incorrect posts that are there purely there to increase post and points counts rather than provide a solution to the problem. I have to admit I had been considering "hanging up my boots" which is in no small part due to the way the points system promotes quantity over quality. Interesting to see the points pilot. I will be looking on with great interest.

[Former Member]

Thank you for the support!

It would be nice to see SAP engaging in a dialog (and pilot) of what the (silent) community wants from SCN and a more representative rating system (like www.stackoverflow.com has), in the stead of ponits games (which is now fraud in my books).

Cheers,

Julius

[Former Member]

>

> >

> > 
> > I would love to see the amount of replies given in that forum go down by at least 50%. I might even start reading whole threads again if that happens. And no, I do not think less problems will be solved, on the contrary.
> > 
> > Jurjen
> > 
> > P.S. Funny to think how making SCN pointless would make it more usefull 

>

> Likewise. It has got to the point now where I am contributing less and less because I lose the motivation to trawl through posts of partial or incorrect posts that are there purely there to increase post and points counts rather than provide a solution to the problem. I have to admit I had been considering "hanging up my boots" which is in no small part due to the way the points system promotes quantity over quality. Interesting to see the points pilot. I will be looking on with great interest.

________________________

This.

I have left SDN completely (except for some Coffee-Corner and Suggestions posts) mostly because of the point system. I do not have the time to read through threads that have mostly point-hunting or me-too answers. On top of that, I feel I lack the stamina to contradict ridicilous answers, get upset, hit the abuse-button, write endless comments in abuse-reports, get even more upset, come back the next day and spend an entire 30 minutes hitting the abuse-button again ...

If you were to initiate a pilot in the security forum, you have my full support and I even go so far as to promise to look in every day ...

[ThomasZloch]

I am really missing your abuse reports. You don't have to be as detailed in your messages, a few keywords would suffice, should this save you any time.

I can only appeal to everybody to not silently hang up the boots and give up, but continue to actively fight the evil.

I for my part have now all the ABAP forums on mail watch, I'm trying to check out each single new thread as time allows, catching the lazy, FAQ, duplicate, interview, etc. questions, however to look at each single reply is just too much, so I'm missing some of the me-too, unrelated, careless, copy/paste type of problems. Need your reports for that.

Still, with pk and Rob I think we have got a grip on the ABAP forums. There is many other forums with dedicated moderators, but also some without, unfortunately.

Of course we need full support by SCN management, otherwise the foundation and motivation for all the efforts would me missing.

I will watch with great interest the pilot in the Security forum.

Thomas

[OttoGold]

I´ve got a question. I use google to search the SCN (mainly forums) when I face a problem. I often find threads with zero or even minus value (at least in my opinion). Would you mind if I use abuse button to reports these? Even if they´re old etc.? would you be willing to "clear" this threads or would you at least consider doing this?

Thank you, Otto

[Former Member]

>

> It would be nice to see SAP engaging in a dialog (and pilot) of what the (silent) community wants ...

Hi Julius,

I think the SCN team, which does a great job in so many respects, fails to understand this issue simply because they themselves don't USE the high-traffic technical forums. They sit somewhere outside, define metrics, which suit their needs and sucessfully measure them, and if 50.000 ponits complain about the ponits system, they do what an 'outsider' can do and busily do a statistical relevant analysis to find out that 500.000 ponits feel perfectly okay with the ponits system.

IMHO, this is a common theme found so often, for example when employees of Acme Org. suffer from an awfully unusable travel mamangement self service software and wonder why no one seems to recognize and improve things. The reason most often is the fact that managers themselves, who sponsored that software, don't have to use the it themselves but let brave assistants do it.

My 2 cents,

anton

-

---

~~~_{support fourty-six.fifty-nine.one.two}~~~peace.

[ThomasZloch]

As always I can only speak for my area. Please leave a very short comment on why you see it as abuse, and I will check them out. I'll let you know when it's too much and you should cut it down again

Thomas

[Former Member]

Hi Julius

I've only recently 'joined' the SDN forums having moved from SAPFANS and find it has some really interesting posts but this points system does seem a little 'Ebay' ish as in 'Please give me positive feedback'.

Those little radio points buttons should be replaced with a good old fashioned - 'Thank you'

Brad Bohn wrote

Why? Does it really matter? You can have mine and the silly badge ;-). 

Anybody want my points?

Or maybe we can have a FTSE like collective points system where the better the quality the points awarded/deducted for good/bad posts/answers is shown as a delta for each forum?

I vote for removing the points systems at user level and go for an overall approach

Cheers

David

Edited by: David Berry on Dec 6, 2010 9:09 AM

[suresh_datti]

Talking about the u2018pilotu2019 project, it was back in the days when there was only one ABAP forum & Rich was in full flow. The noise levels were noticeably low whenever the points system was down. And this happened on more than one occasion. I do remember commenting about it in one of those discussion threads ( shutting down the points system ). Yes, this discussion has been going off and on from the beginning! Anyway, JB, you have my support( if that counts at all ) too, for your pilot project.

~Suresh

[Former Member]

Marilyn wrote: The point system and recognition system IS here to stay.
\[..\]
Julius wrote: If that is true, then of course I am going to say goodbye.

My apologies for all those tired already of my rantings, but those two sentences above are statements that I'd rather not have seen or known about.

Noise levels in the forums are way too high and my personal feeling is that the SDN forums are an excellent matching ground for people who want to be spoon fed and highscore/badge lovers. I am here on SDN, because I hope to exchange knowledge/experience and learn something and of course I'm also willing to help others, including beginners (after all, there's enough areas where I'm a complete newbie myself). However, once the interesting content dwindles, I don't see any reason for myself to wade through the tons of silly postings in the forums.

Based on Marilyn's quote it seems (unfortunately) clear where SAP's preference lies - a huge community on SCN seems more important than quality content. And I must say that I can't blame them for that - probably the majority of SCN users and SAP are quite happy and the ones who complain seem to be a very small minority.

However, from my perspective this minority matters: I started looking for postings of specific users, who reliably produce interesting content. You can probably guess that Julius is among them, so should he leave along with possibly a few others of my favorites I'd probably also stop visiting the forums. Maybe we find a new home somewhere else (if I'd have more time I'd suggest creating one), but it seems the bubble of hope on expert forums and quality content finally burst.

But enough complaints, let me try to end on a more positive note: I truly appreciate and enjoy the open, friendly and embracing way the SCN community team listens and reacts to our rantings/suggestions. My personal vote would be to abandon the point system as quick as possible, if necessary via a pilot limited to one forum. And I'd like to challenge any point system/badge advocate to come up with any good reason for keeping it - apart from catering to people's egos or community growth as a goal in itself (which I think has already been proven successful) or charity (obviously SAP could donate money based on other factors than awarded points)...

Cheers, harald

[Former Member]

Hi,

would love to see the amount of replies given in that forum go down by at least 50%. I might even start reading whole threads again if that happens. And no, I do not think less problems will be solved, on the contrary.

Recently, I've replied on a thread where it was clearly mentioned that no points will be awarded even for the best answer in the world.

It surprised me. There are very few answers on that thread, since there are no points:) But, the other threads where I reply with the sure shot solution also has 100s of replies even after the requester has marked it as answered.

I completely agree and vote for this idea. Taking out the point system will infact decrease the duplicate/generic replies/farm links/copy paste answers a lot and it will be morethan 50%. This will make the threads more readable and awesome.

As a pilot, may be I recommend to try out disabling the point system in one of the forums. Why can't it be SAP Security

Regards,

Raghu

[MaheshChandra]

Taking out the point system will infact decrease the duplicate/generic replies/farm links/copy paste answers a lot and it will be more than 50%. This will make the threads more readable and awesome. 

sorry i disagree with this, how can we conclude that removing points will effect a lot and quality will be increased instantly. points system is not the only reason for quality so look at the other issues which already discussed in other discussions/threads. As Julius said first remove the point system in one forum and check whether quality improved, no of users increased. i will also support for it if it really improves the quality of SDN

regards

Mahesh

[jurjen_heeck]

>

how can we conclude that removing points will effect a lot and quality will be increased instantly

We cannot. Patience is required here. First we have to get rid of a lot of noise which will still clutter up the search results for quite some time.

Expecting the number of forum members/posters to go up is wrong in my opinion. We will loose quite a lot of people who do not have real SAP problems and aren't interested in other peoples problems but who are here only for the points. With them we will lose the lazy people who think they need ur gent quick fixes instead of training to earn a living in SAP consultancy. SCN should be an addition to SAP documentation and training, not a substitute.

In return we hope to get back some knowledgeable members who have left because of the noise ratio but I think that number will be a lot smaller.

Jurjen

[OttoGold]

I´ve got a question. I use google to search the SCN (mainly forums) when I face a problem. I often find threads with zero or even minus value (at least in my opinion). Would you mind if I use abuse button to reports these? Even if they´re old etc.? would you be willing to "clear" this threads or would you at least consider doing this?
Thank you, Otto

In my opinion deleting noise could help here. Maybe this could disappoint some point hunters...? this way we can clean up the noise. Not today, not tomorrow, but remove all the ....rubbish one can find on SCN through google. Ok, much work, but will not change the SCN for the masses and will improve the quality (hopefully).

Otto

[Former Member]

Considering the amount of noise already available how much percentage do you think can be identified through google?

If at all we are succesfull atleast in a small percentage, what about the new rubbish that will be created without a mechanism to stop the future one's ? Don't think anyone has the patience to keep abusing potential questions for decades waiting for a increase in quality.

Even i strongly support the idea of removing the ponits system.

Vikranth

[Former Member]

Thanks everyone for the support!

Don't think anyone has the patience to keep abusing potential questions for decades waiting for a increase in quality. 

Exactly this is what makes the ponits system unsustainable on SCN and a perpetual and perenual pest on SCN because of the bonus schemes which use it as a source (also within SAP - which is why "ponits-gaming" is now fraud...) and I do not want to be associated with that in any way.

But I have an even bigger personal concern with it (beyond the moderator efforts required to handle the symptoms)... and Raghu has already hinted at it..

--> The ponits system creates rivalry in the forums and people in competition against each other. They also attack each other publicly, or irritate each other intentionally. They report each other in the Abuse Reports asking moderators to remove ponits from each other

What sort of a community is that? What sort of a system (or moderator) wants to support that?

Were it not for the ponits system, they might have been friends and collaborated together to create a very usefull wiki with a high rating ...

I have managed to access a call with SCN management next week (thanks to help from the SCN team).

I also drove to Walldorf this week and have support from SAP Product Management (but not sure whether SCN listens to Product Management...).

I also requested an audience with the Chancellor of Germany, the Queen and Hasso Plattner to show them what I had shown SAP Product Management about their "shop floor" on SCN.

I have not contacted the tax authorities about the fraud yet, because I don't have a contact there and that can be settled internally IMO...

Crazy? Watch the spot...

PS @ Shameem Mohamed

 LOL  :=) :>D  

Thanks for being a sport about the original question which has taken a bit of a turn... I would be interested in your opinion on the subsequent discussion about evaluating contributions on ponits as a base.

[jurjen_heeck]

They report each other in the Abuse Reports asking moderators to remove ponits from each other

Whoa! This I didn't (want to) know! How sad is that. So I guess you should get SAP to either remove the points system or the word 'community' from these forums.

[Former Member]

Yes, it is very sad sometimes.

We once had a rivalry between Sri and Franklin (if that means anything to you...) which ended up in their wives being drawn into the discussions to flame each other (and some comparisons were briefly visible in the forums, but I removed them).

They have now both left SDN completely... but did have some interesting posts at times. Even some discussion value topics...

Okay... entertainment? Or sad?

For me SDNers are always human people with feelings and judgement calls to make (sometimes misplaced ones - particularly when they think they are invisible in the internet).

With that I do not have a problem and am very colleagial - the bugger is that the ponits system encourages it.

Encouraging misuse and hatred even (which I have seen often enough) is surely not something SAP wants to sustainably support.

Of course SDN is all voluntary (except for those who have bonus schemes dependent on ponits, which makes a more malignant tumor out of it...) so we are also free to leave in the same way as we came here looking for quality content not easily found elsewhere in the internet (or google) and interaction with SAP.

Cheers (a.k.a "Goodbye" if SAP does not respond with some commitment to give it a try)

Julius

[stephenjohannes]

The funny part about this conversation is that out of claimed Two Million+ folks who are registered here, the active contributor contest only yielded around 3000 people. Right now we have about 1300 non-SAP employees who are active contributors and 2281 total if you include SAP employees for the last 12 months

This translates to 0.065% of the registred based outside of SAP and 0.11% of the registred base total. That's based on two million. Even if there are only a million folks registered we are not at even 1% level.

The scariest number is that we only have 12K folks with 20 points or more in the last twelve months. Still less than 1% of the total population.

The context is very few people contribute content overall and 98% of the overall registered base could care less about SCN points.

Take care,

Stephen

[Former Member]

Here is another interesting statistic...

The Top Contributors forum has the following description:

Feedback, conversation and interaction - the things that make this community great! You as the Top Contributors are people we trust, respect and listen to - this is your place to be candid, open and honest with us. 

We had a poll and top contributors took a vote on a forum with deactivated points system to remove the noise from the current SDN forums. Votes were "weighted" on points - the more you have to loose, the more your vote counts.

The result:

96'632 points in favour of a deactivated points system forum

0 points against the idea

Several contributors from SAP also supported it, but from the SCN team there was no response.

Cheers,

Julius

[Former Member]

a very usefull wiki with a high rating

Do we really have this, ratings for wiki?

[marilyn_pratt]

No need to get the heads of countries involved just yet, but would be good to talk to Jeanne and Laure next week as we have arranged. They havenu2019t seen the numbers you posted to be able to respond to them. Can you provide a link for their reference?

And a brief comment to @stephen. You may note that while 98% of participants care nothing for the point system, those same folks might also care nothing about any efforts made to improve or disband with a system.

[GauthamV]

May be we can try the option of hiding the current ponits to user level and

remove the assign ponits option in new threads for next 3 months period and check.

(Atleast in ABAP General forums where the noise level is high).

But for most of the other people who SEARCH in SCN for solutions will not be able to

recognise the correct answer easily if there is no ponits assigned to that particular thread.

My 2 cents...

Have a nice weekend.

Cheers

Gautham.

[Lakshmipathi]

Though I also vote for this proposal but I can confidently tell that if the points system is taken, then almost the suggestions being posted in the forum would come to very minimal if not nil. In fact many employers are encouraging this system to judge their employees performance for promotion

So unless some alternate recognition is given to members who give quality suggestions, I dont think this will be as effective as it is presently.

thanks

G. Lakshmipathi

[former_member184657]

This is exactly the problem we are facing right now. Some employers push their employees to contribute in the forums to either judge them during appraisals or just keep them busy.

Hence they resort to gathering/hunting/gaming points. There are very few who actually help others with the view of "helping" and "sharing their knowledge". Remove the points system, and hundreds and thouosands of point hunters vanish. Meaning lesser traffic and quality suggestions, since most of these guys usually post "me-too" answers or a vicious linkfarm or copy-paste from SAP Help or other sources.

It's a perfect solution.

IMO, contributions must be for contributions-sake only! There should NOT be any other ulterior motive to one's contributions apart from the satisfaction of helping a needy soul or sharing your vast experience to the community in general.

pk

[jurjen_heeck]

'morning all,

One very important issue that emerged in this discussion so far is that you'd want some grading/appreciation for the good answers so beginners can steer away from the bad advice which will inevitably pop up within the search results. And yes, I also like my points as tokens of appreciation.

How do we create something that grades the posts and expresses appreciation but which will not have monetary value in the outside world?

Hmmm, I dunno yet

Jurjen

[former_member184657]

One simple solution will be for Community members to Thumbs Up and Thumbs Down the answer.

pk

[Former Member]

All the best.

Edited by: Jen Yakimoto on Dec 12, 2010 5:35 PM

[Former Member]

I am a bit late on the topic, but i think we are getting personal agenda's and the position we carry into fray when we come up with strong statements as "Take it or Leave it" - well that might not be the best approach in my opinion.

I might get quite some flak for saying this but the fact remains that the points system as Julius rightly pointed out creates quite some unhealthy atmosphere on the Forums. Points next to your name are not always the ideal reflection of ones know-how and they can only make people get a false sense of superiority over others. I have seen people with quite some points, run down others and give haughty replies as they feel the masters of the universe but end up giving equally jerk-like answers. so the points are not a reflection of the number of grey cells in your head

If we look at it at a wider aspect, the problem stems from the fact that SAP recognizes implementation partners who have a huge SAP clientele and are also helping SAP in developing its product by taking part on the SCN forums and contributing. By contributing i mean making a value contribution rather than have x number of people and have xxxxxxxxx points against the companys'name. this fool hardy concept of gathering points by the companies to get recognized by SAP is the base and crux of the problem. In a company that might have a few thousand consultants having everyone of them registered on the forum and asking questions and rating each other on the answers will only spike the companys'ratings and is worth nothing else.

For guys who are out there to really learn,understand and help - the points system is the single most irritating factor on the forum

I have seen some old posts where even moderators indulge in asking for points (sic....) and its surprising to note that a peson of Marilyn's stature agrees and supports such a system.......well this is not the most encouraging factor for relatively new guys like me

@Marilyn : You might have your own valid reasons for suporting the points system...but i gather that there are quite a few who dont agree to that

@Julius, Mylene, Alex, Jurjen: I am not sure if it matters, but count me on.........you know on which side i stand......NO POINTS PLEASE

[Former Member]

I would like to to add to the chorus, if it means anything -

Let us not have any points for answering questions in forums. Let us just have points for contributing to blogs and such like. there is no need for any recognition for answering users questions. I sincerely feel this will definitely cut down on the thousands of poorly worded newbie questions once people stop answering them as they will no longer get any ponits.

[Former Member]

Absolutely, I do not want to get caught in the crossfire between two u201CPowerhouseu201D. There is a misunderstanding.

Will get back.

Regards. Jen

PS: Iu2019m nobody, itu2019s pointless to u2026

Edited by: Jen Yakimoto on Dec 13, 2010 5:13 PM

[Former Member]

C'mon Jen.........thats life........everyone is a nobody till others start to know them, so cheer up and say something if you want to

there is no perfect man - there are only perfect intentions :-)and the intentions are what count and make a difference

[stephenjohannes]

@Marilyn

Exactly the focus of the conversation has been on how to "adjust/improve/disband" the recognition system without looking at what is the "point" of the system in the first pace.

@All

I think all the conversations about whether recognition should be kept the same, don't have much value until the purpose/meaning behind the recognition is defined again.

Take care,

Stephen

[OttoGold]

You were laughing at the "me-too" so-called "answers". By the way, ladies and gentlemen, this thread is full of these...

We need to rew-ard quality, we need some kindf of consensus. We don´t need a holy war against the "system".

This makes me laugh... who is a fan of Linux, raise your hands. Now Windows fans. Now fire at will.

Suggest something positive. Turn off poi-nts system feels so deep like cost savings in the world countries when the "crisis" attacks. Governments: Let´s start the reformation (means cut the costs). SCN smarties: Let´s make SCN better (means cut off the poi-nts). Sorry people, that makes me laugh.

I don´t know many of you personally. Those who know me know that I exagerrate a lot and am a funny person. For those who don´t know me: sorry, no offense. I only want you to think.

Otto

[Former Member]

Sorry to disagree with you Otto.

The Coffee Corner is the right place to speak your mind and add support for things which many have thought about before but not found "a wall" to spray paint their mark on.

Stephen is on the right track... the points system got SDN going but I have serious problems with it now.

In addition to the cases above, there are aspects which are not obvious to the eye. Further espects which bug me (probably more than any other) are:

--> Companies are immortalizing the ponits scoring system by integrating it into their bonus systems - this makes all subsequent recognition initiatives near impossible to divorce from the underlying measurement of noise on SDN.

--> SAP is integrating ponits into their own bonus systems and KPIs. Managers don't want to miss those targets so we now (currently) have 5 moderators from SAP gaming the ponits system to earn a bonus. In my books this is not just "gaming" for recognition. It is fraud.

--> Measuring year-on-year KPIs based on ponits borders on basic stupidity for those who use the search. It would only be possible to "grow" 20% per year if the functionality was (completely) redesigned 120% per year to ask legitimate new questions. In the ABAP, Basis and Security forums this is simply not realistic.

Now... consider who needs ponits? Think about all the strange new forum intuitiveness? Think about the search...

About 2 million SDN members don't have nor need ponits because they don't have any. Not sure where they came from, but it seems they are on our side and in my books they count because they fullfilled some other KPI.

A system which rated content by the community would go a long way and be perpetual. One can also measure when it "times out" release dependently.

Sorry Otto, you get a "Thumbs Down" from me this time, and the others get a "Thumbs up".

Cheers,

Julius

PS: Specifically in the case of Marilyn, I would also like to clarify that I have great respect for her and if anyone appreciates quality content and takes care of it on SDN then she is the one. As you can all see, she is also the only person from the SCN team who has responded to this thread (Thank you Marilyn!). Possibly the others are counting our ponits...

[Former Member]

Shekar,

Much has been said about the status quo, the new proposal. What else left to say ?

Jen

Edited by: Jen Yakimoto on Dec 14, 2010 6:12 PM

[former_member181915]

Thanks everyone for the lively discussion on this topic!! I'm fairly new to the team, so the back and forth discussions, as well as the historic information I've seen in the forums is very helpful.

As some of you (mentors) know, Laure is kicking off formalization of feedback to be able to turn it into requirements that can be prioritized, estimated, and appropriately acted upon based on cost/benefit and bandwidth. I look forward to continuous improvement in 2011 based on this activity.

@Julius, I'm looking forward to meeting with you (albeit virtually) later today. I appreciate your positive feedback on Marilyn and her response. I did want to let you know that the majority of the SCN Collaboration team was in a workshop together last week. After discussing, we agreed that Marilyn could respond for all of us, which is why we weren't replying individually.

Best

Jeanne

[Former Member]

Thank you Jeanne!

I am looking very forward to contributing to these initiatives.

Also, welcome to SCN and the Coffee Corner

Cheers,

Julius

[Former Member]

Dear gurus,

Just want to update you all that we had a very interesting meeting yesterday about the topic - some of the mentors have also jumped in and SAP has a team actively looking into focusing on quality content motivation via community rating in the stead of ponits.

Imagine forgetting about your ponits at the mercy of a (lazy) OP and waiting to see how the whole SAPosphere appreciates your contribution, also years later if it is timeless quality and not just a workaround? Then you are on the right track and SCN is as well.

But I guess it will take some time and the "pilot" to disable the ponits system in the security forum is not without controvercy.

Good news --> We don't need to prove a ponit this way anymore nor flog a dead horse "just to see what happens" ...

However the moderation will be very blunt in the interim.

Thank you Jeanne, Marilyn, Laure, Gali and all the other gurus around the world for the insights and support!

Cheers,

Julius

[MaheshChandra]

mohamed,

open the Sdn home page,http://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn

on the left navigation panel in contributor corner you can see [Recognition Program Overview|http://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/recognition-program]. i.e. answer to your question

regards

Mahesh