Question Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers in Questions about SAP Websites

My rant about standard of questions and answers

Former Member — Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:06:48 GMT

Hi All,

I just wanted to have a bit of a rant about the standard of postings, specifically in the ABAP-General forum (but usually across the whole site.)

Every day hundreds of questions are asked and so many of them are completely simple, pointless questions. Maybe someone is going for a job and they have been given a technical questionnaire to complete first. This is annoying and is watering down the content and value of the forum for people who have genuine issues and need help. Sometimes people are just plain lazy and want a program written for them. Quite often people claim to have a task to do that they don't know how to do (I don't mean they are a bit stuck with a complicated part of it, I mean they don't have a clue where to even start.)

Now, all of this is quite annoying. To be honest, it indicates to me there is a massive market somewhere in the world for people to "pretend" to be SAP consultants. So many posts ask for interview help, example resumes, etc... If someone knows how to do something then they should be able to get a job on their own. Why do we continually see people asking for help in a job/role that they obviously cannot do?!

I work in the UK where there is a move to outsource large parts of the IT industry to less expensive parts of the world. I’ll be honest, it really upsets me to think that potentially I could be losing my job to someone who doesn’t really know what they are doing…

What annoys me even more is the people who actually reply to these questions with example code, resumes, sending documentation, etc... There are people on these forums with thousands and thousands of points, mostly gained by sending documents or answering fundamental questions that really shouldn’t have been asked in the first place. No-one seems to want to suggest to the question asker that they may search help.sap.com, use the F1 key on an ABAP command, search Google, nevermind search previous SDN postings! Everyone is too wrapped up in getting points. I noticed someone the other day (don’t know who specifically, it doesn’t really matter) who had only joined SDN in the past month or so yet had about 900 points. Of course, they might have transferred in from another user and got the points across but either way, I looked at a few of their answers and wondered how the hell they had so many points! I admit, I don’t have that many points even though I’ve been on SDN for some time (this is actually my 2nd ID – I had no points at all for years with my last one!) But then, I don’t really care about getting points – I want to get help and give help (if/when it is deserved.)

I realise everyone has to start somewhere and ask questions, even if they are very simple. I just wish the answers to these questions were better and focused on helping the person to learn and help themselves instead of just looking for points.

I’m beginning to think this site would be so much better if there was no rewards scheme in place… And I’d love to see a lot more moderation in the forums. I’d love to see the “please send me document xyz” threads closed straight away but realise this takes a lot of effort to police. Do the SDN team have any plans to increase moderation of the forums in line with the increase in users?

Anyway, rant over I’m sure I’ll get lots of different replies to this (I hope I do!) as I’d love to know what other regular users of SDN think.

Gareth.

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

marilyn_pratt — Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:20:36 GMT

Hi Gareth,

Thank you for your welcome critique. You obviously care enough about quality concerns to voice your opinions here. This topic of point-mongering and job seeking has of course been discussed countless times here. Your variation on the theme hits particularly on integrity of job seekers. One would hope that employers would be astute enough to distinguish quality from deception. I've been doing a good deal of reading about outsourcing and think there might be another swing of the pendulum if that is any consolation.

As you include an SDN team (SCN team ) question about moderation, my answer is yes, we are doing our best to expand engagement of moderators and enlist and encourage new moderators. We have also been much stricter about nuking threads.

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

Former Member — Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:01:03 GMT

Hi Gareth,

I am sure your rant gives words to the thoughts of many people on the SCN. Just wanted to add a reply here to say that We are trying to change things in the BI forums...I say 'We' because it is not only myself as a Moderator, but also a few (very few) other regulars here who are trying to make some effort in this matter. See some of these threads as examples:

Requests for documents and 'one-liner' questions are removed if necessary and we try to encourage people to do their own searching. I hope that this will help to improve the quality of discussions and threads...any other suggestions are welcome as well.

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

ChrisSolomon — Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:49:43 GMT

Hmmm I guess I won't bite my tongue any longer.....might as well add my $0.02. I have seen a steady decline in the forums from what began with redundant, basic questions that you pointed out, to spamming across forums the same type questions, to asking/begging for copywritten SAP material (training docs, Marketplace documents, notes, etc), to asking for EXACT program code/solutions, to asking for EXACT configuration documents and/or project documentation, to asking for for certification questions, to asking for interview questions, and finally to the most shocking for me, asking for example resumes that can show 1-2 yrs experience. All of those don't even address the other known issues with "gaming" and such that I won't get into.

As all of this continues and appears to be steadily increasing while no sign of being moderated (and yes, I have much respect for the mods here! Would not want that thankless task! haha) or any kind of control that can curb and dissuade this, these are the exact reason I no longer contribute much (if any) on the forums. As I believe Grumpy has called it before...."too much noise". It also makes me very suspect of a lot of the people that come to the forums now...and I don't like that feeling. I find myself questioning why they want "this" information a lot more than "how can I help".

I visit SDN daily and enjoy the blogs (and will contribute there when I can), but for the forums, I just see them getting more and more abused. Sorry to sound negative....especially sorry for ranting about the problem without offering a solution. =(

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

suresh_datti — Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:08:52 GMT

Not just limited to ABAP General.. the Virus is

~Suresh

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

suresh_datti — Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:29:19 GMT

> I visit SDN daily and enjoy the blogs (and will

> contribute there when I can),..

Good luck with that.. just in case you haven't seen, there are enough 'email me' requests against this

~Suresh

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

Former Member — Thu, 26 Jul 2007 22:35:55 GMT

i know this is delicate but I wonder if a lot of this issues have something to do with the current state of the Indian IT job market and the way it works.

this is just an impression of mine based on statistical grounds. but it might well be wrong due to the fact that simply a majority of users is Indian already.

maybe some of you living in India can tell a little about the job market over there. To me it seems that HR there, maybe in lack of of practical abilities to judge the job candidates, uses a quiet formal approach in the form of standardized tests, over-estimation of certificates and stuff like that in favour of real interviews. Such a formalization could well explain the temptation of lots of applicants to game the system.

anton

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

Former Member — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:19:40 GMT

Hi Marilyn,

Thanks for your response. As you say, I've seen countless threads with this topic - I'd just got to the stage where I needed to have my say as well! (I feel better now I've got it off my chest

You're quite correct, my main gripe is with the integrity (or lack of) in the forums and that it is almost encouraged by a lot of SDN regulars just to gain points. Maybe we should be able to reward users of SDN with both good AND bad points, similar to eBay. So if someone just says they will send a document and asks for points everyone else can dock them 1 point. I'm sure that way some people will quickly go from thousands of points to negative!! Maybe it will also encourage people to help themselves and search.

But seriously, I realise the moderation of these forums must be a complete nightmare - I didn't mean to criticise the moderators and hope my original post didn't read like that. I'd love to be able to take the time to stop even just the "please send me document" threads but if I did, I'd never get any of my customer's work done!

As far as outsourcing goes, I don't feel personally threatened by this (at the moment) working in a healthy SAP Projects practice for a large and successful SAP Partner Consultancy but do find the whole situation somewhat annoying. I also agree with you that the whole outsourcing thing isn't over yet and without wanting to offend probably the many highly skilled SAP people in the outsoucing countries, a lot of the work I have seen delivered from outsourced teams is pretty poor. As with everything there are good and bad, the problem seems to be the bad is far outweighing the good at the moment!

About moderation, do you actively approach candidates you think would be ideal or wait for them to contact you? It seems that maybe a higher number of moderaters would help a great deal to spread the workload and I'm sure there a lot of regular posters who would be willing.

Gareth.

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

marilyn_pratt — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:23:28 GMT

Gareth,

Never fear voicing criticism when it is constructive. I hope we are responsive and not defensive as moderators.

To answer your question about expanding moderation: Our team does invite individuals who show outstanding and exemplary behavior and are obviously community-minded. The process is, as most human interaction processes, a mixture of art with some science. I can speak for myself only when I say what else would encourage me to engage an external moderator (and rest assured I don't exhibit all these qualities):

1) Obvious top-notch subject expertise (or someone in the throes of learning to be an SME)

2) Unbiased, fair and culturally sensitive approach to participants (no obvious personal agendas or favoritism toward particular members)

3) Patient, committed, consistant and really enjoys helping others (even Grumpy manages that)

4) Professional/Cool-headed - a person who is able to detach from emotion and stay level, even in the face of negative interactions

5) Productive- knows how to manage time spent moderating

Are such requirements reasonable? Can you think of something I have missed?

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

Former Member — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:29:53 GMT

In India, a lot of entry level work is done (in addition to senior level). It would not be surprising to find people working for Coke or Boeing or other big enterprises, performing various tasks for implementation or support, who have only 6 month's real experience.

It is economics and it is inevitable.

As a business in Europe / US, if I spend 4 months to hire 3 developers who are good, and if I get 3 below-average(say for arguments' sake) developers plus a good lead developer to make sure the work delivered is ok, plus the flexibility of service-level etc, plus the hiring finished in 2 weeks; all at half-price or less, it makes sense to go for the later. The perceived risk on quality can - be just a perception, or even if true, can be mitigated with more oversight and involvement of people from the customers side. Plus the outsourcing companies have good processes to make sure the quality standards are met - which may or may not be the same when it was done onsite.

Since there is so much demand for entry level people, you see resumes and questions indicating that trend.

Personally I think experience is over-over-over hyped by some people here. Really, do you think people who have spent 10 years in SAP development can write better code than a netweaver developer who might have spent, say, 2 years? Maybe. Not necessarily though. And, at some point everyone started at zero.

If I know back-order, or pricing conditions, I can write code involving that functional side of business. Given there are hundreds of different types of businesses and business processes what does it prove? NOTHING, if you ask me. Give me a fresh developer with drive and capability to learn, with minimal experience, over any 10 year experienced person with accumulated baggage which makes him think as superior because he has 'experience'.

Some people here compare apples with oranges. A person of 10 years experience in US or Europe is not better than a 10 years' experienced person in, India, or Brazil or wherever; this is simple logic. The perception that a 10 years' experienced person is being compared/replaced with a 2-year experienced person is wrong - it doesn't happen unless the job required a 2-year experienced person to begin with.

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

Former Member — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:15:42 GMT

Hi Marilyn,

Looking at the list of criteria just shows how hard/demanding the role must be. I'd struggle to achieve 2 out of those 5 (you'll have to guess which 2

Gareth.

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

Former Member — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:23:42 GMT

Hi Ajay,

My original rant wasn't really about the state of the outsourcing market, that was just a by-product of the topic I guess.

I'm genuinely surprised and/or worried though at some of your comments about experience and the economics of the whole thing. Classing someone's 10 years experience as baggage worries me greatly - whilst I agree there are a lot of people who have sat and done the same thing day in day out for 10 years this isn't really what I would expect of a good consultant. Yes I do think someone who has 10 years of experience can write better code than a fresher - in most cases anyway The fact that people call themselves a Netweaver developer because they have done some Java and got a Web Dynpro PDF from SDN is one of the root problems. SAP is such a large, complex system that experience is very, very important. Anyone can learn ABAP and write a program. It takes a lot more to understand the business processes around that program and how it will fit into a large corporations IT landscape, nevermind interact with the multitude of other standard/custom objects likely to be implemeted during a project.

Also, simply concentrating on the overall cost of something isn't always the best approach to delivering a service. I think this is one of the biggest problems with our industry at the moment - decisions are being made based on financial/economic basis alone without consideration of the bigger picture. This is happening throughout the IT market, not just the outsourcing sector.

You're quite right, the people who show drive and capability to learn are those who will go far - but I'm pretty sure they aren't the same people asking the stupid questions we are seeing in these forums in ever increasing quantities which is what my original rant was about. In fact, I was really getting at the people who answer the stupid questions (example - ) just to get points. We should be encouraging people to help themselves and using all of the tools available to them, not just asking everything on SDN. This is a task far too large for just the moderating staff - everyone needs to do there bit and whilst points are available for these sort of questions it won't change...

Gareth

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

stephenjohannes — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:11:00 GMT

Gareth,

This thread has brought up several interesting topics that personally show the conflict between legitmate learning and gaming the system.

1) I honestly still don't understand why threads that ask for copyrighted material, still get past the moderators, except for a lack of time to close/enforce those requests. I see this on the CRM forum way too frequently.

2) People expect way too much information from vague questions. I have seen questions on to perform XYZ? If you give someone an algorithm on how to retrieve it in the system, they still want a coded solution. Code snippets are fine to flesh out certain implementation issues, but for a vague questions, I find code way too excessive.

3) Experience does make a better coder. Anyone can learn the base sytnax of any language and write complicated programs with about several weeks of intense study. However that assume you understand how to program in the first place. I personally find it fascinating some of the firms around the world(including the US) that present the inexperienced as "senior" and charge the senior rates. Also in lean shop you don't have the time/money to train someone who is supposed to already know that skill in the first place.

4) SDN Points do not always equal real knowledge of the product. I probably know several individuals whose product knowledge is above the high-point earners in some of the application specific forums. The only reason why these people don't contribute is due to time and the fact that the forums are not "expert" enough.

There are some questions I personally never post on SDN, because the discussion level is beyond what the answers I receive would merit. Higher-level design questions just don't quite always fit in area, where people are just asking the basics. I personally wish there was a "beginner" and a true "expert" level for each area. I would love to have less technical talk in the BPX areas, and a functional/BPX area for CRM as an example.

Take care,

Stephen

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

former_member378318 — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 08:46:16 GMT

Stephen,

Some good points however I don't agree that SDN is an area "where people are just asking the basics" there are often more involved and challenging questions posted. It often takes a beginner to open the eyes of a so called expert by questioning a process. "Why do you do it like that?" reply "because thats the way we've always done it".

It would be difficult to police a higher level forum as you yourself say SDN Points do not always equal real knowledge of the product.

Surbjeet

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

stephenjohannes — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:52:40 GMT

Surbjeet,

I think you have an excellent point. I would like to clarify that by higher level discussions I am talking along the lines of "design issues" and not pure implementation issues. By the very nature of the forums which is good, the discussions tend focus on lower level implementation issues. I know in the CRM forums there are more questions on "how-to" of some particular aspect, rather than "big picture" implementation issues.

These type of questions may be a more BPX related issue, but I really would like see an area that focuses on the design of the implementation and not on what code is necessary to make it work.

If you ever read the SAP expert journals, some of the more "process-technical" articles is what I would look for in terms of discussion. I think the only way to get that is to have areas that don't allow "pure coding questions". That's why even the BPX areas are disappointing because I see way too many questions on what table to read data out of, or this user exit. Instead I would expect to see questions like how could we take these standard processes plus some custom and combine them into a solution.

Take care,

Stephen

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

marilyn_pratt — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:42:11 GMT

Stephen, thank you so much for raising this. I share your "disappointment" that the BPX area is flooded with coding questions. We are presently discussing giving moderators more jurisdiction to "move" posts that aren't design/analysis/process oriented to their more technical view.

Of course "educating" our public would be the best cure but that is always the challenge.

I would love for you to move this conversation directly to the /community [original link is broken]. Open to discussion how to keep "higher level discussions" separate from configuration and implementation issues.

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

former_member374 — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:26:32 GMT

Hi Stephen,

You write: <i>I personally wish there was a "beginner" and a true "expert" level for each area. I would love to have less technical talk in the BPX areas, and a functional/BPX area for CRM as an example.</i>

Who will do the shuffling of beginner posts out of the expert forums? Or delete the double posts that people will put into both forums? Don't forget that our moderators are doing this on the side of their daily work. I thought tagging may work, but that would also put additional stress on the system.

All the best, Mark.

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

stephenjohannes — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:54:17 GMT

Mark,

My goal is definitely not trying to create more work for the moderators. Instead trying to figure how to get more of those "offline" conversations that I know exist from personal experience into SDN, without being drowned in the noise of everything else that is in the current forums.

When I was thinking about this, I realized that the type of discussion here that yields no points, but for the sake of argument yields a different type of audience. Instead of having moderators sifting through expert/non-expert, how about some areas that don't have any points attached for some more general discussion.

I know many people contribute because they want rewards, but on the other hand perhaps it would lead to a lot less noise. As far as someone asking the questions, the people who are active in the forum could redirect the more technical questions back to the "points-earning" forums. The people who answer the more "technical" questions would tend to avoid answering those in the "point-free" forums because of lack of incentive.

So perhaps the answer is more usage of the coffee-corner for some "generalist" type questions or more "coffee-corner" type areas to encourage some more general discussions.

Take care,

Stephen

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

Former Member — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 13:47:02 GMT

Hi Marilyn,

Just had a thought about moderation...

What about a larger team of "sub-moderators" who are responsible for removing a lot of the noise from across all of the SDN forums. So they would specifically look for and lock the simple threads (like 100's of people asking for documents) and lock them. There are numerous other types of thread that could easily be closed down quite quickly, having the advantage that the remaining threads should become of a higher standard. Thus the more expert style moderators can help out more and also maybe a lot more peolpe will feel motivated to read and participate in the forums without the fear of having to sort through a lot of "noise" as it is currently being described.

Just an idea!

Gareth.

Re: My rant about standard of questions and answers

ChrisSolomon — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 13:53:06 GMT

"I sub-moderated for SDN and all I got was this lousy t-shirt"

I LOVE it! 😃