Question Re: neptune for UI development Pros and Cons in Technology Q&A

neptune for UI development Pros and Cons

Former Member — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 05:04:42 GMT

Hi ,

we are evaluating neptune for UI development for what are the pros and cons of using neptune.

i see only that webdynpro abap developer can be easily moved to neptune , some javascript knowledge is still required.

some question

1) can neptune make calls to odata services ? do that requires code in javascript or ABAP

2) any accelerators provided by neptune like for workflow scenarios , list and details .

3) can sap standard fiori apps extensibility or modification is possible through neptune

4) security if its accessing business functionality directly

regards

Yashpal

Re: neptune for UI development Pros and Cons

ChandrashekharMahajan — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 05:34:00 GMT

Hi Yashpal,

I do not have answers to your question but I guess Njål Stabell from Neptune will provide answers to your question.

Regards,

Chandra

Re: neptune for UI development Pros and Cons

Former Member — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 08:31:13 GMT

probably only the pros...

Re: neptune for UI development Pros and Cons

Former Member — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 12:26:55 GMT

Hi Yashpal,

I will give you my view, but as Robbe says I work for the company and other SAP developers like has other development tool preferences than me ( I call his Sublime Text development spaghetti coding and he sees Neptune as a crutch that restricts a developer's freedom but this is just a friendly point-of-view discussion and I have promised him a beer in Walldorf next time our paths cross there)

So the important message is that SAP has opened up their platform for different development tools and it is now a choice for the individual developer or SAP customer. This is a fantastic move by SAP and I think a bit overlooked by the community, Look at the new Xamarin partnership as an example (and yes they are a competitor, but I did mention them )

Now the pros of Neptune are in my opinion:

ABAP developer friendly development (removed 90% of JavaScripting needed)
Connected to the SAP transport System (Software Logistics as is)
Drag Drop designer that gives structured code (easy for a new developer to take over code, compared to the spaghetti provided by DJ <- I'll need to buy a few extra beers for that remark)
Native json communication provided by the Neptune Server (you can argue all you want about Odata, our solution is more flexible gives incredible performance and superb and easy to use offline capabilities)
Integration with Adobe build, use an SAP program to generate hybrid apps (The average ABAP developer does not install cordova and build hybrid apps - with Neptune he/she does)
Integration with SMP. Automatic connection with the REST API's of SMP both on-premise and in the Cloud
Reduced time to market. One of the largest SAP implementation partners in the Nordics stated that Neptune reduced development time by 80%
Free templates (Advanced templates such as fully functional PM, HCM, SD templates are available Experience | Neptune Software <- sorry for the marketing but you did ask)
UI5, all of the other third-party tools (Not SAP tools like App Builder, Eclipse etc) uses non UI5 frameworks. I personally believe that SAPUI5 (UI5) is the future of SAP UX and thus it only makes sense to keep a common and future-proof framework.
Network crunching. We optimize all networking. Which makes sense for mobility.
no extra infrastructure needed - it is a certified add-on and takes 15 mins to install.
Works with most versions of SAP. We even have alot of customers using 4.7 (we need the ICF so nothing lower). This is something the community often forgets. Yes it is cool to play with the latest Netweaver release, but do our customers have that installed?

Cons (woot!)

Cost, even if Neptune is very affordable it still requires license for productive usage (free for developers though - and hey we need to live as well ) So custom coding is cheaper in respect to license (but not in TCO in my opinion)
Generated code, even if we have added as much freedom to code custom JavaScript as possible there will always be restrictions in generated code compared to notepad. (But I haven't met an issue that couldn't be solved by custom coding in the Neptune Application Designer yet)
Other backend systems. Neptune is based on ABAP and as such it obviosly works best with an ABAP backend.
.... (Add stuff from other non Neptune ppl )

Regarding your questions:

1. Yes you can use Odata, best way is to consume it on the ABAP level, but you can of course consume it through JavaScript as well (Not recomended by me)

2. Yes see above (free templates and also premium templates by our partners)

3. No you can't modify a fiori app with Neptune, but the two solutions work perfectly together (You can add Neptune apps in the Fiori launchpad) One of our partners have created an RDS solution based on both Fiori and Neptune.

4. Neptune is an add-on to Netweaver and as such has no extra security in itself beyond that (And we seek not to do that). But we support any security you wish to add on top. I strongly advice having a look at the SAP Secure offering (App protection and MDM) as well as SMP (also the new Cloud edition which gives easy affordable protection for your backend)

So that was my very biased answer

Njål

Re: neptune for UI development Pros and Cons

qmacro — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 19:52:40 GMT

I know it's only tongue-in-cheek, but those comments are rather harsh and completely unfounded.

Since when do you conclude that using an editor produces spaghetti coding?

Quite the opposite, in fact; when you're writing code by hand, you don't end up with ugly generated stuff, you have crafted it. This is not about Sublime per se, but have a look at the code I'm writing in Sublime in this video:

Here's a screenshot:

Is this, hand-crafted code what you're calling "spaghetti"?

If you are, I think we are on different planets 🙂

Re: neptune for UI development Pros and Cons

Former Member — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 20:45:09 GMT

Great that you replied and sorry for the pasta comment

I think it is great that you answered since wanted pros and cons to development options and I am of course biased in that area and you have other options he should consider.

Regarding planets, you know I am stuck on that blue one. Your code is pretty and structured (more on the tortellini side ) and your work with Sublime UI5 code completion is great.

I still think the average ABAP developer feel more comfortable with something like this:

And that is the point. There are loads of tools out there to help you with UI5 development and it is of the greatest importance to offer UI that is 2014 worthy to the SAP customers, and when it comes to UI5 our planet is all in.

Oh, and ppl you really need to watch the video, great moment when the phone rings

And just to avoid misunderstandings, tortellini is a very precise and beautiful pasta, like DJ's code.

Njål

Re: neptune for UI development Pros and Cons

Qualiture — Mon, 17 Mar 2014 13:17:20 GMT

If I may play devil's advocate for the devil's advocate, let me increase the heat in the kitchen by stating that "the average ABAP developer" should not even bother about UI5 since "the average ABAP developer" has no clue whatsoever about UX, usability and/or user interface design... leave that to a UI designer, and not to a developer who feels more comfortable in transactional screens...

Most designers are quite weary of generated designs, Microsoft Frontpage has embedded this fear forever 🙂 We want complete freedom and control of the user interface look & feel.

This is in no means a case against Neptune, I certainly applaud their efforts and I certainly see its specific need and business case. It's just my biased answer 🙂

I once worked for an architect from Chile, and he once said (imagine a Godfather-like voice):

"I don't want code to be like spagetti, I want it to be like lasagna. In layers"

Re: neptune for UI development Pros and Cons

Former Member — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 10:39:58 GMT

Hi Robin,

Did you listen to Bowie's "putting out fire with gasoline" before posting

I totally disagree with your statement that ABAP developers should not use UI5. The UX designers are the ones that does not need this framework as UI5 is a high level framework where design is already taken care of in Waldorf. So, it is actually perfect for design blind people like myself. Hey, I am able to create just as good or better design than what is coming from the Fiori initiative because of UI5 and support tools like the theme designer.

If we look at your opinion from a global perspective where you have about 130 k customers and a million+ ABAP developers as their main technical resources you are dooming the future of UX improvement for SAP. I think you are making the WDJ blunder all over again.

I my experience it is not better to have a separate front-end developer that has no clue about SAP and business processes creating something totally useless from a functional perspective and expensive for the end customer, even if it (sometimes) looks nice.

Just my can of gasoline

Njål

Re: neptune for UI development Pros and Cons

Qualiture — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 11:33:24 GMT

Hi Njål,

Let's just agree we disagree

But first and foremost, do not mix up "design" with "usability". I too think the design and look'n'feel of UI5 is great -- although I can certainly see some improvements here as well, and thankfully it perfectly allows for these improvements as well!

But what I'm talking about is usability, a user-centric approach to (enterprise) application development. Working from the UI to the backend, and not the other way around as we have done for so many decades and which SAP has been guilty of doing too. Thankfully, with their adoption of they are starting to do it the "right" way too.

And forgive me for being lumped and putting all ABAP developers under the same umbrella, but working as an SAP consultant for 12 years has learnt me the "average ABAP developer" has virtually no clue whatsoever about usability.

In my experience it is absolutely paramount to have a good front-end developer who certainly must have a clue or two about SAP and business processes, but most of all has a thorough understanding of how to translate the business needs to a usable, viable and -- ahem -- desirable user interface.

Re: neptune for UI development Pros and Cons

Former Member — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 14:26:55 GMT

Lets agree that we want to change this:

To usability like this:

I have tried having UX experts do that, and they FAIL. Why, because they have no idea how to achieve this on a technical level. They will always be lacking. You actually need to know how to improve a process based on core SAP knowledge in the specific area.

Having a web designer give you advice here is the same as having me help you with Dutch Robin

So power to the ABAP developers as they are much more than technical assets, they usually posses ERP, process and SAP knowledge in areas where other developers sorely lack competence thus being the best people to optimize SAP UI's.

Re: neptune for UI development Pros and Cons

Qualiture — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 22:40:31 GMT

Hi Njål,

I hate to say it, but you probably hired the wrong usability experts then

As an example, let me show you a standard SAP screen, for instance creating a purchase order:

(Image taken from SCN Wiki: Basic Subcontracting Process - With one Nota Fiscal (NF) - Localization Latin America - SCN Wiki)

There are so many things wrong with this screen, I don't even know where to start... And without breaking the business processes behind creating a PO, this screen can be made so much better with the actual user in mind.

IMHO, this screen exemplifies a typical 'designed by an average ABAP developer' who solely has the process in mind, and totally forgot about the poor soul who's forced to actually use this screen.

Again, you should definitely not hire a web designer to create usable applications, but neither should you hire someone who only has the model and/or process in mind and oh, now we have some spare time, lets quickly hack together a user interface together.

I can only applaud SAP's efforts in area's like Design Thinking in general, and Screen Persona's, SAPUI5 and Fiori design language specifically, to actually take a user-centric stance.

And at the same time, and let me get this straight, I certainly applaud you and your company's efforts to take this a step further and allow for the rapid development of consistent, robust UI5 screens.

So power to a coherent team of ABAP developers (ERP), Java developers (integration specialists) and UI+UX experts to deliver usable UI5 applications on top of a world-class ERP system.

Re: neptune for UI development Pros and Cons

Former Member — Sat, 22 Mar 2014 00:14:32 GMT

Hi,

I don't like your tone. The 'average ABAP developer' does not exist in isolation.

He/she is a product of the environment including so called Designers, Functional consultants, Users, Project managers etc.

When expectations change to produce better usable software, i am sure the 'average ABAP developer' will step up and deliver.

Anything that enables ABAP developer productivity including Neptune is a huge step in the right direction.

I don't know what SAP is smoking, but my pov is if SAP cannot energize its loyal customer base it has no hope for success in "Reaching out" to the non-sap so called design friendly community.

Regards,

John

Re: neptune for UI development Pros and Cons

Qualiture — Sat, 22 Mar 2014 08:11:47 GMT

Hi Jon,

That's exactly my point. Unfortunately, if I'd only accepted projects where the significance of testing the usability of (custom developed) applications on top of SAP / SAP Portal was actually accounted for, then I'd be on the bench 10 out of 12 years of my career...

My friendly point of view is, I think Njål's statement of "ABAP developers are much more than technical assets, they usually posses ERP, process and SAP knowledge in areas where other developers sorely lack competence thus being the best people to optimize SAP UI's" is a bit exaggerated in the heat of the discussion, but I would love to extend this discussion in Oslo as I believe there will be an SAP Inside Track planned this year

I absolutely believe in the strength of a product like Neptune -- heck I even recommended it's power and simplicity of use to a prospective client -- but leaving it solely in the hands of ABAP developers / functional consultants would be a hugely missed opportunity of making something usable.

Re: neptune for UI development Pros and Cons

renatabarros — Fri, 10 Nov 2023 19:43:44 GMT

Dears, I am looking for Cons to use Neptune, specially when working on ECC environment. Please share with me your bad experience, because I've already worked with it and I think it is flexible, fast and easy to develop.

I am doing a Decision Matrix and looks like I am defending Neptune, but to develop complex apps from scratch compared with Fiori, Appian and SAP Build by BTP, it is really really better considering costs to develop, maintain and integrate. Neptune can share same Fiori launchpad, it looks like Fiori. And it is still cheaper and faster to develop.

Please give me Cons...